70. tiger mom: horizontal with a recovering perfectionist

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70. tiger mom: horizontal with a recovering perfectionist

My name is Lila, and I love sleepovers, spooning, sharing, storytelling, sex, and stargazing, among other things. So I metaphorically rolled them up in audio form and called it a podcast. Horizontal with lila is Slow Radio. It’s intimacies of all kinds. It’s consensual eavesdropping.

Lee:  It was the constant dilemma of I’m not enough. And, to the p— I have it tattooed on my finger as well: I am enough. And, there was this constant striving for perfection. And I have experienced quite literally how that has impacted my ability to, become intimate with people.

Lila:  (softly) Tell me.

Lee:  I have some very specific examples from, the last partner I was with, about two years ago. And it’s never quite happened this way, before or since him. But I would, go to bed with makeup on.

Lila:  Mm.

Lee:  And I would wake up before him — and mind you, I never slept well… next to him — […] I also, we also didn’t build the kind of emotional safety that I now know is required for me to really… show myself, and feel safe in it. So, I never slept well. But I would wake up; I would shower. I’d put on a little more foundation. I’d put on some deodorant, brush my teeth, and I’d hop back into bed.

Lila:  (chuffed) Did you know that that’s basically the first scene of The Marvelous

Lila & Lee:  Mrs. Maisel! (Lila giggles)

Lee:  And when I saw it, I felt so sad. I was like Oh my gosh, this poor woman; I can’t believe she thinks she needs to do that! And then I was like Ohhh, shit. […] And I, I cried. And that happens in Nappily Ever After as well. A great movie on Netflix.

Lila:  I’ve definitely done it. I’ve definitely gone to sleep with make up on. (underlapping) When I was next to a lover.

Lee:  (overlapping) And it was this incessant. This incessant… need to be perfect and presentable all the time. […]  And, (sigh) yeah that, that striving for perfection, and objectifying myself.

Lila:  That’s the second time you’ve said that. What does that mean to you?

Lee:  Hmm. I’ve had so many run-ins with this breakthrough. And… the simplest way I can put it is: you know I could see a chair in front of me and say that that is a chair […] and the chair is, static in it’s beingness because unless I manipulate it, it doesn’t change. And I like that the chair doesn’t change. Because I want the chair to function how I want it to function. And that’s that I can sit on it and depend that it will hold my weight. […] And I very much one-dimensionalized myself… in wanting to show up the same way every time. And that even meant—

Lila:  OOOooooohhh.

Lee:  Really rigorous workouts so that my body would never change. Even through my menstrual cycle, my body very rarely shifted in weight or shape, because I was so extreme, in my workouts, in my eating, […] and it was just, a constant striving to stay the same, as if I were an object—

Lila:  It’s like you were trying to Starbucksify yourself …

Lee:  Yes.

Lila:  So that when people came in…to you, they got the same experience.

Lee:  And they would know what to expect.

Lila:  But, what to expect, was excellence. Right?

Lee:  And nothing less than it.

Lila:  And nothing less.

Lee:  And I, you know, even as I say that, I think, deep down, more than them knowing what to expect, I needed to know what to expect, from myself. Because if I didn’t know what was coming next, I would feel completely out of control.

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My name is Lila, and I love sleepovers, spooning, sharing, storytelling, sex, and stargazing, among other things. So I metaphorically rolled them up in audio form and called it a podcast. horizontal with lila is Slow Radio. It’s intimacies of all kinds. It’s consensual eavesdropping. It’s us lying down right next to each other, wearing robes, sharing secrets, in your ears.

Each horizontal session with a guest is between 2 and 3ish hours long, and divided into two episodes. Part ones, like this one, are available anywhere you get your podcasts, and part twos are available exclusively to patrons of the horizontal arts.

As you might imagine, the part twos go deep, since we’ve been marinating in conversation for over an hour. And at the very very end, my guest tells me a story of some intimacy. For access to The Full Horizontal, become a patron of $5+ per month, because…

Become a Patron!

Fair warning, horizontal lovers!

When I launch Season 3, (and it is happening Soon) I’ll be shifting some things, revealing a couple of surprises, and revamping my Patreon tiers: If you’ve already become a patron, you’ll be grandfathered in with access to all the episodes and my gratitude for being an early listener.

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In this episode, recorded in a slender little apartment in Brooklyn, New York, I lie down with Lee. Lee is a Pleasure Guide: a Tantrika, a Bodyworker, an Intimacy Coach. She’s a Sensuality specialist.

I first met Lee when she was working with a friend of mine at The Women of Venus (which you’ll hear about in part two, episode 71). I’ve been trying to get her to move in with us at Hacienda Villa for about a year now!

When I’m around Lee, I feel warm and grounded. She is exceptionally supportive and clear-eyed, at the same time. Her belief in the version of me that I love the most, my favorite self, and my potential to embody that self and act beautifully on the world is like … an amulet that she has made by hand. She has her finger on the pulse of the Great Mystery, without being a prig about it. She’s a girl’s girl, a woman’s woman, with a generous dash of humility, and a fierce commitment to stand for her own growth, and for yours.

For all of the information about Lee’s Intimacy and Pleasure Coaching practice, find her on LeeNoto.com 

This episode was recorded in Lee’s bed, in another part of Brooklyn, and though you are spared the trains screeching around the bend like they do when I record in my room, there are still a few sonic visitors: an old heating unit, a creaky ceiling that is someone else’s floor, some pretty raucous neighbors, and… a plane or two.

City living.

Local color.

In this part of our conversation, we talk about slow-going sex and celibacy, plant medicine journeys and masturbation, objectifying yourself and faking orgasms, promiscuity as rebellious self-expression, pushing buttons just to know what they’re for, the glorious practice of bragging, a Tiger Mom, and driving herself to perfection so hard that her face paralyzed itself to get her attention.

To see more pictures from this recording session, and get behind-the-scenes access to horizontality and my sex-positive life, follow @horizontalwithlila on Instagram, and sign up for the missives on horizontalwithlila.com

In next week’s episode, part two of my conversation with Lee, episode 71, we discuss intentional masturbation, receiving oral sex, fantasies of auto-cunnilingus, giving yourself what you wish for a partner to give you, the indefinable mystery of tantra, red tantra, white tantra, urban tantra, a tantric temple called The Women of Venus, Mama Gena’s practices of Trinities, Swamping, and Spring Cleaning…

And Lee & I do something unprecedented on the podcast, something I’ve never heard recorded anywhere else: we each do a Spring Clean on a topic we’re struggling with in real time, stream of consciousness style, and entirely unedited. I feel a little bit nervous to share it, actually, but that’s when I know I have something really worthwhile to reveal.

You don’t want to miss that one, so:

Become a Patron!

On Saturday, March 16th, Lee is curating an event called Eating Out: an Erotic Feast inspired by oral sex. She calls it an Edible Education. For all the details, visit her at LeeNoto.com and sign up for her mailing list.

On Thursday, March 28th, I’m leading The Art of Trust: an Intimacy Games Workshop. If you’ve seen any of the shots from my Intimacy Warriors photoshoots, you might have an inkling of what this workshop will be like! We’ll play games like Sphinx, Hot Seat, Human Conveyor Belt, and the Touch Gauntlet. Details coming soon.

And now, come lie down with not one, but two recovering perfectionists, in Brooklyn, New York.

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Links to Things:

Become a patron of the horizontal arts and get grandfathered in with access to The Full Horizontal (all the episodes) for $5+ per month (before the tiers go up)!

Become a Patron!

For all things Lee, including her Intimacy Coaching practice, visit her at leenoto.com

An article about Mrs. Maisel’s midnight makeup ritual

Nappily Ever After, a film that Lee recommends, and another example of the rituals women have done in order to prevent being seen as anything less than flawless

Mama Gena’s School of Womanly Arts, where countless women have reclaimed the power of pussy and learned how to brag

Lila regularly practices bragging with her housemate Mirelle, the very first horizontal guest ever! Episode 1. feed your delight: horizontal with a polyamorous woman.

The first panel discussion that Lila has ever hosted, about Intentional Communities and resource-sharing

The Pleasure Mapping Game created by Lila’s housemate Kenneth Play, Sex Educator (Episode 69. average-sized penis: quickie with The Sex Hacker)

Lee’s upcoming event on Saturday, March 16th, Eating Out: An Erotic Feast

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Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to this website or my Patreon!):

website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/

Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila

[5:46]  Setting the scene of Lee’s bedroom, which Lila says “feels like a place where somebody has done a lot of meditation.”

[6:23]  Lee has the phrase “dancing as slow as they can” on her Vision Board. What does it mean to her?

[7:00]  Lila on slow-going sex.

Lila:  Slower than slow, and then slower than that.

Lee:  Mmm! I love that.

Lila:  Which, is really, a kind of sex that I really, love… One of my cherished memories with a lover is: I had just moved back to New York. After traveling for 9 months and burning out, and then spending two months at my mother’s house in Florida for the first time since I was 17, and then a month with my father in upstate New York. And I’d moved back … so this would be … two thousand… twelve, I think. And I was living in the Loom building in Bushwick, which is this sort of mixed-use building that has commercial enterprises on the first floor, including a coffee shop and a yoga studio where I would occasionally teach (which was amazing to roll out of bed and, roll downstairs and teach, and then roll back upstairs, that was, delightful). And I was living with this… very passive-aggressive, very neurotic housemate, and she called herself Bob.

Lee:  Oh.

Lila:  So I was living with Bob, and—

Lee:  Did she refer to herself in the third person?

Lila:  (giggles) No, it wasn’t. It wasn’t in that way but … there were many ways in which … things were … restrictive and strange. And, she, had made — or her ex had made for her… three bedrooms out of this loft. And so I was in this, sort of, tiny little yellow box. Of a room. Next to two fundamentalist Christians, who were living together… in sin, question mark?

Lee:  I’m like, well what were they doing together though? (Lila giggles)

Lila:  They were just living together and she was waiting for him to ask her to marry him. And their parents didn’t know that they, lived together.

Lee:  They were doing nothing else though, right?

Lila:  I have no idea. They didn’t talk to me about it. Annnd, she wasn’t very nice, and we did not get along, and so I just made— there was a lot of ignoring in that household. It was, it was really; it was not a pleasant living situation. But I was living there, in this sweet little yellow room, and I had met this man on set: Michael. And Michael was, a locations guy. And he was tall and broad. Actually he had a chest kind of like Anthony’s… broad and warm and (sharp intake of breath) gushy and delicious and really sensual. Pink lips; I’m just really into sensual … thick-lipped … men. It’s not thick! But. Well-formed, lips.

Lee:  Oh yeah.

Lila:  And I met him on set and just mercilessly flirted with him, and we had, seen each other maybeee, maybe once or twice before then. And I really. I really had to convince him to come over, and the way that I convinced him to come over was… I knew that he loved a hairless pussy, and I said, “I just got a Brazilian… wanna come over tonight?” (both laugh)

Lee:  Nothing else needed.

Lila:  And he did— that was the only time that worked, but—

Lee:  Wait, so you’ve done that more than once?

Lila:  I think I tried to tempt him the next time I got a Brazilian, but it didn’t work. […] He was very— he worked crazy crazy hours, that’s true, but he was also, really boundaried with me. So, he, came over, and we didn’t speak. He came into my room and we didn’t speak … and we took 45 minutes … to undress each other.

Lee:  Wow.

Lila:  It was: Slower than slow, and then slower than that. And it was— I have never been so aroused, and then so ready, to be penetrated, because it was so slow. (big sigh from Lee) And I keep trying to get back to that experience! I keep trying to— ask people to go slower, and nobody, goes, slow enough, for me.

[11:34]  Lee on celibacy.

Lee:  So I’ve been practicing celibacy. And now I will say abstaining from intercourse, because I haven’t been fully celibate the last, week or so. But it’s been—

Lila:  And how would you define celibacy?

Lee:  Ooh, yeah… No sexual activity. So no, self-pleasure. No sexual activity or interaction with others. No sexual conversation. I won’t even go off to sexual fantasy in my mind.

 

celibacy (noun) = a practice in which a person consciously chooses to abstain from sexual activity (which could include, but is not limited to: penetration, oral sex, masturbation, sexting, and fantasy) for a pre-determined period of time, or a lifetime (as in the case of monks and nuns). This may be chosen for the purpose of breaking a harmful interrelational pattern, because of religious beliefs, or as a regimen believed to encourage creativity by channeling sexual energy into art.

 

Lila:  How do you avoid that?!

Lee:  Well listen, it has come on the back of a lot of breakthroughs that I’ve had over the past couple of months.

[12:13]  Lee on plant medicine journeys and the idea of doing drugs versus taking medicine.

Lee:  I had entered into a really powerful plant medicine ceremony about two months ago, and it had been a while since I had worked with any plants, and with medicine people … […] So, in this particular instance, I wasn’t working with ayahuasca; I was working with kanna, which is a heart-opener— there are derivatives, I believe of MDMA, that come from kanna. Or vice versa… Cannabis. And then, a family member to iboga… so. Different plants from the Amazon that all have different effects and different spirits. Also wachuma, which is known as San Pedro…

Lila:  And when you call it “plant medicine” … that means you’re approaching it medicinally.

Lee:  (beat) Yes. And my… take on that is, I’m not using it in terms of… the mindset that there’s anything to heal, within me, as much as I am coming into conscious relationship with these plants. We are relating to one another. As if they were a person… And we’re dialoguing back and forth.

Lila:  But you’re dialoguing back and forth with… a substance that alters you in such a way that you expect it to be a kind of guide for you. To show you… to yourself.

Lee:  Yes.

Lila:  I imagine that many people would say, “Well what’s the difference between taking drugs … and … receiving plant medicine?”

Lee:  In action, perhaps there’s no difference. Maybe there’s not. And I’m open to receiving that interpretation. For me, in my own life, the difference is my intention. If I were to use another substance, and I had intention with it, I might be okay, partaking. I— there have been times when I have been very intentional in my use of alcohol, and times where I have not been intentional. When I intentionally drink, oftentimes it’s alone. And, I will go to a bar, or a lounge by myself. I’ll bring my journal. I’ll actually set an intention before I sit down at the bar. Usually when I’m journaling it’s to: allow whatever is in me to flow out onto the page. So that I can feel creatively expressed.

Lila:  And then when you use plant medicine, of any kind, you’re approaching it with some other intention.

Lee:  You know, my intention for each journey is a little different. I would say the underpinning of that is to … become closer with myself. To learn something that maybe I didn’t have an awareness of or a presence to before. And, I can do this all without substance. Absolutely. As can we all… The use of substance, and working with… trained facilitators and shamans is simply an avenue to exploring ourselves in another way. We can do that through music. We can do that through poetry. It’s just simply an avenue that I like to explore. And that I, have enjoyed, and have found deep empowerment in.

Lila:  Do you think that it is really only partly about the substance itself, or the… activity itself… and mostly about the framework that you create around it?

Lee:  Mm…. yeah. There’s a lot of power in that. I trust that I could manufacture a very similar experience with framework, and intention, and space, like allowing myself the space and time… and I could have… breakthroughs as deep and profound.

[16:38]  What was Lee’s intention for her  most recent medicine journey?

[16:56]

Lee:  I asked to be open to receiving whatever it was … that I was going to learn about myself. And it was quite surprising. Because what I learned, among other things, was how I have been confusing sexuality and intimacy… my entire life. And how I have, inextricably linked the two. And so there was no space for them to be their own thing. If they wanted to be. […] And, as a result, have created so many situations for myself, that could have been very deeply intimate, and became sexual, and, I didn’t want them to go into the realm of sexuality. And, I have also in the past used sexuality as a way to avoid deepening intimacy. Because it was easy to have sex, or to objectify myself, in a way. In order to, perform, so that someone wouldn’t really see what was happening behind the curtain.

Lila:  Instead of, to talk.

Lee:  Instead of to talk— or to not talk, and simply let someone look me in the eye. […] And see my face, and, see, any emotions that could be coming up for me.

[18:29]  What was Lee’s household like as a child?

[18:40]

Lee:  When I was born, both of my parents traveled for work. My Dad, was a truck driver. All 48 states. And my mom was an international flight attendant. […] And, for a few years in my childhood, I lived with extended family. Because they were both traveling. So I was raised by the village, essentially. […] I lived with my mom’s brother and his wife, on the weekdays. And my Dad’s sister on the weekends. So I would travel back and forth to— between Jersey and New York. And they would basically, do a hand-off, every week. And they would meet halfway between New Jersey and New York, on the turnpike, at a rest stop, and they would hand me off. And that was my life for a few years, growing up. […] At the time it seemed normal, because I didn’t know anything else. It just seemed like that was the thing we were doing. […] I am really close with my family as a result. So I’m thankful in retrospect that, I had the opportunity to spend some of my formative years, with extended family. […] I got the perspectives and lessons from… different people in my life that I really admire. And I also really missed my parents. And even— once I had moved down to Florida, I was often with babysitters or friends, for, I’d say the first few years. Just because there was so much travel happening. And, I rarely saw my parents together. Even though they were still married. And even through elementary school to high school. There would be times where my Dad would be on the road for two to three months at a time. […]

Lila:  Do you think that, the fact that they didn’t see very much of each other is part of the reason why they are still married.

Lee:  (immediately) Yes.

[21:04]  Lila tells a little story about one of the couples from the book Advanced Love. What is the secret to their continued success, as a couple that’s been together for so many years? “I live in New York, and he lives in L.A., and we meet in the middle!”

[22:48]

Lila:  They’ve found something, that works for them. And that’s really what I’m wanting to promote, is people, finding… a situation. A set of parameters. An architecture. That actually works for their relationship. Not one that’s prescribed by… the church, by society, by the magazines.

[24:25]  Little Lee’s introduction to sensuality and sexuality.

Lee:  From a very young age, I became very aware of sensations in my body. And I was very curious with how my body functioned. And, I’m really interested in cause and effect. So I’m the kind of person that if I see a button, and I don’t know what it’s for, I will literally press it. […] It might be an eject seat, (Lila laughs) but I’m still here, so it hasn’t been yet. I have done some damage by, by literally pressing buttons though.

Lila:  Literally pressing buttons?

Lee:  Yes, I shut off an entire I.T. system once, as a child. (both laugh)

Lila:  I love this insatiably curious little you.

Lee:  Yes. (laughs lightly) So. At that point, once I was living in Florida, I became curious. I started looking around the house and finding… little treats and treasures.

Lila:  What did you find?

Lee:  VHS’s of course.

Lila:  Ooooohhh! Videos!

Lee:  Do you remember those?

Lila:  Of course I do.

Lee:  Yeah. So I found VHS’s; I found books.

Lila:  Do you remember what kind of porn they were?

Lee:  Oh yes. I remember finding a Howard Stern— a live Howard Stern recording. And there wasn’t much porn until the end. And it was soft core. […] But it was between two women. And that was the first I had ever seen of, like, anything more than a kiss, on TV, and I’m like, What is this?

Lila:  (overlapping)  Wooow! So your first imagery is two women.

Lee:  Yes.

Lila:  That’s fascinating. I’m not sure I’ve ever spoken with anybody who has had that as a first experience, of witnessing sex. What else did you find?

Lee:  I found a book… it was covered in a paper bag, as a book cover, just so the title wasn’t showing. And it— to my recollection it was a book about… female pleasure.

Lila:  Really.

Lee:  Yes. And how to learn about female anatomy, and pleasure.

Lila:  Who was this progressive person who had this book around the house?

Lee:  My amazing father.

Lila:  (gobsmacked) Your Dad?!

Lee:  Yeah.

Lila:  Wo-ow.

Lee:  Yeah, you know, what I will say about him— he’s actually quite a conservative… fellow. […] Politically, sexually— in terms of outward expression. […] However. He has always had a vested interest in… learning, in developing, and, investing in the interests of those around him. And so, I have witnessed him over the years, invest in my mom’s pleasure.

Lila:  Woww.

Lee:  Yeah… I’ve never actually said that out loud, but it’s such a beautiful thing.

Lila:  That’s— I— feel… emotional about it. […] That’s so beautiful. Especially when, somebody’s conservative nature might have them feeling uncomfortable or nervous around something like that. But… his desire to … essentially love the people around him… And that seems to me like an act of service.

Lee:  He’s such an act of service kind of guy. He was on the PTA. He would come into my class and volunteer. And that was his way to spend time with me, even at school, because he was on the road so much. […] He would come into my classes and bring a solo, propane tank that he made, and he would cook Chinese food for my class every single school year. My Mom taught him how to make Chinese food. She’s Chinese. He’s an American. And he would come in, he would make enough food for the entire class. (Lila mmm’s like an awww) And it would be a thing.

[29:16]  Lee’s Mom is an American-Chinese from Brooklyn.

Lee: My Mom is a very interesting creature, because … she does take on a fair amount of the Chinese culture. She’s also from Brooklyn. (Lila giggles) So she’s this tiny, 5’1 Chinese woman, with a very loud Brooklyn accent. (Lila laughs loudly) And she’s vulgar.

Lila:  Amazing!

Lee:  […] And I’ve only heard a fraction of her stories, but she was an international flight attendant and she loved to party.

Lila:  Wooow.

Lee:  Yes. And, as hard as she was on me, in my upbringing, around education and… social and political correctness, I don’t think I could ever fill her shoes with partying and misdemeanor acts. […] She never showed me that side. I didn’t learn of these things until I was an adult.

Lila:  So she was more of a disciplinarian.

Lee:  Absolutely. She’s the epitome of a Tiger Mom.

 

Tiger Mom (noun) = a mother of Asian descent, typically Chinese, who is characterized by extolling education and worldly success above all things, being stingy with praise, and brutally driving her children towards excellence.

 

Lila:  I’m really curious about this term. It refers to only Chinese mothers, right?

Lee:  I think it covers a lot of Asian cultures now. Just because there is a stereotype about Asian mothers in particular around their, maybe stubbornness or steadfastness in education and pursuit of success.

Lila:  I remember in several books that I read, where Chinese mothers featured prominently as main characters, that, they were very stingy with praise. And, there was a superstition that, if they gave praise, then they might be punished by the Gods.

Lee:  Hmm! Wow. That—

Lila:  Like if, they bragged or if they—

Lee:  That makes a lot of sense now. I don’t know if she would actively identify with that. I don’t, know if that was ever explained to her, terms of Gods being involved. However, I see those behaviors— I have seen and experienced those behaviors.

Lila:  Like if you said, “Oh my child is so wonderful,” maybe then they would be, they would be snatched away. Something— they would be taken from you or something bad would happen. You couldn’t, you couldn’t show that you were too attached to them. Or something. […]

Lee:  It’s interesting because I hear from many other people about how proud she is of me. So I, I hear it through the grapevine. And it’s only in my recent years that we’ve even exchanged words of affirmation.

Lila:  That must have been hard.

Lee:  It was. […]

[32:44]  Lee on enoughness and perfectionism.

[36:52]  Lee on consciously crafting her relationship to women. On hiding and minimizing.

Lila:  This is not something that I would have ever guessed about you. I have struggled with enoughness and versions of it, self-worth, most of my life, and when I first met you and you came over and Tiger, introduced you as, you know, a potential housemate. I was just struck by how incredibly beautiful you are and I was like, Oh no. I’m not sure I can live with someone so beautiful; I don’t want to be jealous of them all the time. And Tiger said, “I don’t think you’re gonna have that issue. Because she’s really a woman’s woman. And I wondered if you had done any alteration, in order to be non-threatening to women.

Lee:  It’s something that I’m hyper aware of. And, I’d have to dig to know where it came from. But anytime I meet new groups of people; if there are men and women, I always address the women first. And I will always, make more eye contact with the women. I’m very aware of social dynamics, and I can very easily tell when someone feels threatened. Through body language. Through gazes. Through, interaction or lack thereof. And the last thing that I want to do, is to have another woman feeling threatened in my presence.

Lila:  Did you know that I, thought that, initially?

Lee:  I had no idea.

Lila:  Do you think that there’s, a way in which, you tried to be excellent but only at a certain level, so you wouldn’t shine so bright so you wouldn’t outshine your mother?

Lee:  Hmm. Interesting. I don’t know if I’ve ever thought of my relationship to her in that way. What, where that did come up for me was in comparison to friends. […] I would hear constantly— I’d be with friends and, my mom would be there, their parents would be there, and I would hear friend’s parents compare them to me. And I was like, Stop. Right now. Like, I don’t even wanna go there. I don’t wanna be, the reason why someone feels less than, about themselves.

Lila:  What did you do in those moments as a child?

Lee:  I felt really awkward, and— yeah I’ve done a lot of hiding. I’ve done a lot of hiding in my life. And it’s really — I kid you not, it’s — only in the last few weeks, that I’ve even started to, tell people all of the amazing things that I have going on. And I’m getting teary as I say it, because I would really just hide it. ‘Cause I didn’t, I didn’t wanna seem like I was bragging. My coping mechanism over time has been minimizing. I’m really not, the drama queen archetype. I am more the, let it roll off your shoulder, everything’s good, nothing’s wrong, I’ve got it, I’m, I’m handling it.

Lila:  The— sounds like, also, a codependent archetype of control.

Lee:  Mmhm.

Lila:  And also trying to control… in this way you’re trying to control other’s experience, right, […] so that they don’t feel jealousy, or less than, by… tamping yourself down. And of course it’s the inverse of the Marianne Williamson quote.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens up. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people will not feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory […] that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone and as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give others permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

[41:13]  Lila on bragging, a la Mama Gena.

Lila:  But it is astonishing how hard it is for so many — mostly women, I think — to step into that. Just even… being willing to brag, right? And Mirelle and I do a practice of that, regularly right, and she also will, will note it, right, whenever I say something that I’m proud of. Like I hosted my first panel discussion the other night— [Note: Mirelle was the very first horizontal guest ever! Episode 1. feed your delight: horizontal with a polyamorous woman.]

Lee:  Wow, congratulations!

Lila:  Thank you, it was about Intentional Communities and resource-sharing. And I had an idea that I would be, good at something like that. But now I know: I’m fucking amazing at it. I am really fucking good at it.

Lee:  Yes!

Lila:  I can— you know— it— I— because it— it— uses my, my performance skills that I’ve honed for so many years, my, essentially, journalistic sensibility that I’m honing as I do this podcast, my interview style, my play, my banter, my, my experience, with the space between myself and an audience… my curiosity! My insatiable curiosity. And, it just allows me to, to flourish with all of those things together. And I was really excited, about it, to find out the confirmation of that, and really to feel: I knew it was great. People told me afterwards, but I didn’t need to be told, because I knew. And that was beautiful and that felt amazing, and so I was telling my housemates, including Mirelle and Leandra, about that last night, and she said (in a saucy minx voice while snapping her fingers) “Well bragged!”

Lee:  (in the saucy minx voice) Well-bragged!

Lila:  So she just gives a little like snappy snap, and she gets a little saucy, a little sexy, and she’s like “Well-bragged,” right, because she wants to, Mama Gena-style, you know, encourage my… my everything! She wants to encourage my, my flowering and my everything and my… unfurling my full, my fullness.

[43:16]  Lee tells Lila about one of the first ways she experienced her.

Lee:  You know, one of the first experiences I had with you was at a community potluck […] and you, hosted or facilitated, the opening conversation and the introductions and the blessing of the meal, and acknowledgement of others, and I was so blown away by how you facilitated that experience that I will remember it forever. And I was like, Who is this woman? I was like, I… need to know her. And I want her in my life. And it was that experience that for me opened up the start of our relationship and then I came to your live filming of—

Lila:  I was so happy that you said you wanted to come and then you came! […] To horizontal storytelling.

[Note: horizontal storytelling in February 2018 was recorded and filmed live! Episode 69. average-sized penis: quickie with The Sex Hacker was recorded that night, with Kenneth Play!]

Lee:  I was so excited to be there.

---

Lila:  I met you and probably within… 5 minutes— it doesn’t even usually take me that long, but I thought I want her to live here. Yes to her. […] And I felt you do the magic of, a non-verbal, communication, that you would be in my corner. That you weren’t going to go to bat with me … or go, to battle with me ever; you would always go to bat for me. Something like that and, that’s a really beautiful quality. And I wouldn’t want you to ever lose that. But also I have this sadness hearing you talk about dimming yourself and being like, I’m cool, I’m okay, everything’s fine by me, I don’t need, much, or whatever I’m imagining, I’m paraphrasing. But I just have this desire to see you like, wearing heels and lipstick on the street and like, fully— it’s not about the, the plumage or the costumery, but— I just have this desire to feel your glory manifested physically.

Lee:  Mmm. Mm. (big in-breath) And maybe that’s not the way that you want to do it, right, that’s like, that’s the Lila version, (Lee giggles) like that’s what I see in my mind.

Lee:  Will you dress me?

Lila:  I would love to. That would be really fun for me.

Lee:  That would be fun for me too. […]

Lila:  I love to style my friends. It’s such a delight to my directorial and sartorial senses… […] I had the chance to do that at the Intimacy Warriors photoshoot that I wish you could have been a part of.

---

[46:23]  Lila on calling the shots.

Lila:  That really excited me ‘cause I felt the director that’s latent in me, and I don’t know, maybe I studied to be an actr— I guess, I wanted attention for sure; I always wanted attention. But maybe I was afraid to say, No, I want to call all the shots.

Lee:  Oooh! Wait, say that again?

Lila:  I want to call all the shots.

Lee:  I like it! (both laugh)

Lila:  I really do. I want to make this TV series, this global intimacy TV series, and I wanna be the showrunner, I wanna—

Lee:  Yes.

Lila:  I mean, I will, I will need someone who has that skill set, but I want to be, you know, saying This place, this location, put the camera here. […]

Lee:  Oh, absolutely. First of all, I’m so thrilled to see all that come to be. I know it’s, it’s already happening.

Lila:  I love how you talk about things like they’re already happening. That’s a really—

Lee:  Yeah. They are. It is. You’ve had conversations. The idea is there. You’re taking action.

Lila:  Yes.

Lee:  You know it reminds me of this scene from Game of Thrones. I never thought I’d be a Game of Thrones referencer, (Lila laughs) but I’m doing it. […] I can’t remember her name, but Lord Baelish asks, “Do you want to be a queen?” And she’s like, “No. I want to be the Queen.”

[47:57]  Lee’s Queen fantasy.

Lee:  I had this fantasy the other day […] of like, being with a man (and even in nonmonogamous relating) like being on top and riding him—

Lila:  Yes!

Lee:  And, having,

Lila:  Yes!

Lee:  Pillow talk about like, sitting on my throne and taking my rightful place on my throne—

Lila:  YYES!

Lee:  And saying, “Tell me I’m the fucking Queen.”

Lila:  YYYES! YYESS! (both laughing) I can’t wait for you to do that. That sounds so good.

Lee:  I’ll let you know when it happens.

Lila:  Oh that’s so, ngahhh, I’m biting my knuckle, that’s so good. […] I like that so much better than Goddess ‘cause that’s never really— it just feels too woo-woo, and I associate it with people who — although I did just call Annie Lalla a Goddess of Love, because I really consider her that way, almost otherworldly — but usually, when it’s thrown around, I just don’t it. It reminds me of people who are not walking their talk.

Lee:  Hmmm. There’s an ethereal quality to it that’s, maybe, in my perspective that’s not earthly, (underlapping) it’s not grounded.

Lila:  (overlapping)  Well sure. And a queen is REIGNING UPON THE EARTH.

Lee:  And there’s just something from… the science of the sound: Queen, that has a certain […] conviction to it. It has an authority.

Lila:  I can’t wait for you to find this partner that you can ride. (Lee laughs) Who will happily say, “You are The Queen.”

Lee:  That might be my vetting system. If he’s not gonna say it, then… Bye!

---

[50:14]  On comparing our insides to other people’s outsides.

[52:12]  Lila on all the anger just below her surface and her anger problem as a child. Also, the punching bag.

[55:36]  

Lila:  Still, I have a lot of fear around anger, that if I were to show someone the full force of my anger, that they would just leave.

[55:56]  What Lee didn’t share with her partner at the end of her last relationship, and the toll her perfectionism took on her.

Lee:  I’ve been exploring rejection and vulnerability and emotional expression a lot lately, and I literally just realized, like two weeks ago, that my heart has been really guarded. And I consider myself to be a very openhearted, personable, being. Yet… that happens to an extent. And, within my control. And… I’ve come to learn that I’ve had a lot of shame around my anger, my sadness, my grief. And it just didn’t seem like, ideal emotions to express. And if I were to express them, would I be rejected by someone? […] Would they see it and wanna leave? And in that last partnership that I had referred to before, I had done everything that I could think of, to be perfect, for this person […] from the way my body looked to the way my makeup looked to how I performed sexually… and he left. He left, he moved, we ended our relationship. And—

Lila:  He left you, or he left… the state so he left you or?

Lee:  They feel like the same thing. They happened at the same time. So… when all of that happened, I expressed happiness for him, for following his intuition and growing his work elsewhere, and following his dreams. And what I didn’t express was, my anger. My sadness. My grief. My utter confusion, because we had it all. And we were even practicing an open relationship, so it’s not that there was any sexual restriction.

Lila:  Oh wow.

Lee:  And I was like What the fuck man? What is in California that’s not here? I’m not in California. So, what are you doing? I gave you everything. […] Everything. And as I didn’t express these things, I threw myself into my work. I was working like 60 hours a week; I was in grad school, I was starting a business, and, I woke up one day and half my face was paralyzed.

Lila:  Holy fuck.

Lee:  Yeah. My left— the left side of my face. And it was like that for a month. (Lila gasps softly) And it was one of the most… challenging, heart-wrenching, emotional experiences I’ve ever had.

Lila:  (pause, softly) What did you do?

Lee:  Well, I thought I could sleep it off. I did the minimizing first. ‘Cause that was, my first line of defense. I didn’t tell anybody. And when I couldn’t sleep it off, I called my aunt. I decided not to tell my parents.

Lila:  Why?

Lee:  I— didn’t feel like I could handle whatever questions they were gonna ask, and I also didn’t wanna worry them. […]

Lila:  Trying to take care of their emotional experience by not telling them. […] And your aunt, you perceived to be more hardy?

Lee:  (pause) Mmmaybe more leveled? Yeah, and she and I have a very close relationship. She was the one that I would live with on weekends, growing up. She said, “You need to go to a doctor right now.” This was a Sunday. So I went to a CityMD in the Lower East Side. I saw the Doctor. Five minutes in, gave me a diagnosis. Pushed some pills my way. As it, you know, usually happens. And I remember standing, in the middle of the Walgreens, about to fill the prescription, thinking There’s gotta be another way. He didn’t even ask what’s happening in my life. He has no idea.

Lila:  What did he diagnose?

Lee:  Bell’s palsy. […] Sooo. I decided to not fill the prescription. I immediately sought the, medical advice of two Chinese medicine doctors, and for the following months, I received really intense acupuncture to the face, very extreme massage to the face and the scalp and the neck area. A course of Chinese herbs. I stepped back from my work. From working out. And, on top of this, I had full body hives.

Lila:  (gasp) My God!

Lee:  Deeply cystic breakouts all over my face. I was extremely stressed out. I was, ill, very. Very ill. And in the middle of an apartment move. And this was in, in the winter, of, I think 2017. […] And this was my breaking point.

Lila:  So you pushed yourself so hard, that your face froze up to get your attention.

Lee:  Yes.

[1:03:40]

Lee:  In Western medicine — at least the practitioners that I dealt with — there was little regard for the origin of this condition. It was: here are the symptoms; let’s give you some pills.

Lila:  And what would the Western medicine have done?

Lee:  I was prescribed a steroid, an anti-inflammatory, and then, I can’t remember what else. It was, three pills. From what I hear, they have a pretty good success rate at helping the, paralysis.

Lila:  But if you had done that, maybe you wouldn’t’ve done all the introspection required to, simply not return to the same kind of punishing… that you were engaging in beforehand.

Lee:  Exactly. I fullheartedly believe I needed to go through that process the way I went through it. Until two or three weeks in I didn’t tell my parents.

Lila:  What happened when you told them, did you feel… like their reaction was intense and hard to—

Lee:  By that time, I had taken enough space to, give language to “Hey. I wanna share something with you all. Here’s the perspective I’m sharing it from.” I had time to ground myself. And, at that point, when I shared it, they were very supportive.

Lila:  How did you phrase it, in a way that you feel it was, it was well— palatable for them, I guess.

Lee:  I remember framing the conversation with saying what I needed from them. Like “I’m about to share something with you […] and what I need is your support. I understand that you may feel worried. But what I really need is your support, and what would have me feeling more stressed out, is knowing that you’re worrying about me.” And I don’t know if that allayed any of their worrying on the back end of things, but they certainly weren’t expressing it to me. They were very, calm and composed, which is what I needed. I needed that grounding force. I needed to know that my parents, simply have my back. And so, they came in and they were like, “Tell us what you need. Tell us if you need money, for your treatments. Tell us if you need us to come up there.” And my mom ended up flying up. And she helped tremendously with my apartment relocation. We had a whole Ikea day, after my, one of my acupuncture treatments, and, she did everything. Like, she took care of everything. And my aunt, is an angel. I remember, having an absolute nervous breakdown on the phone with her one day. And I’ve never really been this way in front of someone before— not a family member anyway. And I said, “I can’t do this anymore.” Like, “I cannot handle this. I need you to take over.” She took over the coordination of the moving company, coordinating with my roommate’s family, like she took care of it all. And I’m so grateful, that, my family showed up in this way, during that time.

[1:07:09]  What happened when her mother stopped working as a flight attendant?

Lila:  And, they’re all in Florida now?

Lee:  My parents are in Florida and my aunt is up here in New York.

Lila:  And where were you when you were going through puberty, when you were in high school.

Lee:  I was in Florida.

Lila:  Still with the, the schedule that was pieced together: here on the weekdays, here on the weekends and?

Lee:  No, in Florida, by the time I had gotten to elementary school, my mom had left her flying job and got, an everyday, come home, sort of job.

Lila:  Do you think that’s when she toned down her wild life?

Lee:  You know it’s interesting: Yes, and I think… there’s a part of my intuition that says there was a lot of resentment in her needing to do that. […] She loved flying. She loves traveling. And I wonder, if that created resentment in our relationship, growing up. And a distance.

Lila:  Right. What she had to give up to be home for you. But, I wonder, why she chose to do it at the point that she did.

Lee:  She was getting a lot of shit from people. There were family members that… had shared some opinions about, her having no business continuing to travel, while she had a child. […]

Lila:  Have you ever broached that with her?

Lee:  Resentment?

Lila:  […] The idea that, she may have… yeah, felt resentment towards you for having to, change her lifestyle and stop doing what she loved.

Lee:  I haven’t. And it’s something that I’d be open to. I just never thought to really ask her about it. And I wonder if, part of, what I perceive to be her Tiger Mom ways… came from… you know, origins of resentment.

Lila:  Whooooooooooo. I just got chills again.

Lee:  Yeah. I remember nothing ever being good enough. I couldn’t sweep well enough. I couldn’t— I mean, the memes about like, “Oh hey, I got an A!” “Why didn’t you get an A+?” […] That happened. I would get grounded if I got B’s, on my report card. […] It was pretty severe, growing up. There was, one point, for a number of years in there where I went to school 7 days a week. Yeah, I would go to Chinese school on Saturdays and catechism or like Catholic School on Sundays. She’s not even religious. She doesn’t give a shit about religion.

Lila:  But you had to perform the optics of showing up at Sunday School. Was that it?

Lee:  Like I needed to be somewhere, I needed to be staying out of trouble, I needed to be developing, in some way.

Lila:  Oh, I was thinking of it as a, a social proof. Like: Yes, my daughter’s one of you; she goes to your church.

Lee:  […] She just needed me to be somewhere. […] The choices growing up were either Chinese School or Hebrew School. I’m like Hebrew School? That’s so irrelevant! She just needed me to be doing something.

[1:12:06]  What was Lee’s entrypoint into sexuality between humans?

Lee:  My first recollection of experimentation was with friends. So, childhood playmates. And, I had one friend in particular, that, we consistently played. And, as a lot of little kids do, they roleplay. So we’d play School, and, you know, Firefighter, and Police Officer, and the role plays became, increasingly sexual. And so we would be making out, light touching. And this happened for a while. And I learned very early on that I needed to hide my sexuality. Just because—

Lila:  How? Did you learn that?

Lee:  I walked in on my parents, a couple of times, growing up. And it was… met with a lot of disappointment, and anger, that I would see what was happening behind the closed door.

Lila:  Did they yell?

Lee:  There was a startle, and then a, like a shushing and a pushing away. Like they had just gotten caught. For something. And so I was like, Oh shit! I caught them! Oh no! And so I had internalized that, well, I don’t wanna get caught! So when I have these friends over, I need to close my door, and I need to be hyper-aware of when I hear footsteps coming… I’m very spatially-aware, because of that time in my life.

[1:13:48]  Lila & Lee on their early humping of things.

[1:14:09]

Lila:  It’s interesting because, generally that tends to influence the way that people masturbate forever after, but I am not a frottage-type masturbator. […] That would be more generalized pressure, rubbing against something, and that’s not how I masturbate. I’m very specific; I use my right middle finger on my clit. Only recently did I think, Oh, well I have other fingers. (Lee laughs) I could probably use two sometimes, I could probably like, also touch, oh I could probably also touch around the introitus— you know! Only recently in the past few years I’m like Ohh. And actually it was because I was kind of shamed, by a lover of mine. Who said, you know, “Yeah, I wanna see how you masturbate,” and he was like, “You masturbate like you’ve been masturbating like that since you were 11.” And I was like, gasp! But that was, that was true. That was true. (both laugh) But, but, the way he said it, I felt that he was judging it. And that, you know, maybe there… like I wasn’t… exploring enough, there, there were other— I was limiting myself, my pleasure was limited because, I had only been doing it this one reliable way. And then I did start experimenting. I still prefer!

Lee:  Tried and true!

Lila:  The circular […] pressure!

[1:15:47]  Lee on being “caught” and going into hiding, rinse and repeat.

Lee:  This last December, I had only now after like 20 years, approached my parents about, some of my activities as a child. Because with this one, childhood playmate… there was one day when she went home and told her parents what we had been doing. After months of experimentation. […] And I don’t know what prompted it. Maybe I took it too far— I mean, because I was really leading the show. […] I was the one really wanting to do this. And, they called my parents. And it was not good. […] They came in and asked me what happened. And, I remember, without them really even putting much of a burden on me, I created so much shame. I remember saying to them, very clearly, “Go get the scissors. I’d rather be dead.” (Lila gasps) And I was like an 8 year-old child. And I went into hiding. And every, time, thereafter— you know, in middle school, in high school, when I had gotten quote “found out” for something, I went into deep isolation. And this last December, I asked my parents about it— this is shame that I’ve been holding for 20-plus years. And, they have no recollection. That this ever happened.

Lila:  Wow.

Lee:  And I was like, Wow… I guess this was my, this was my lesson.

Lila:  (long pause) It seems like you were fearful… really of bringing shame on your family. That it would somehow extend to them, like, your actions, being found out, would taint them, or, because your friend’s parents had called then they knew and you brought shame on your family or something.

Lee:  Well that was how it was framed to me growing up. I remember being 13, and babysitting, and having a boy over. My boyfriend at the time. And the parents came home early. And they caught me, with this boy in their house. And we weren’t doing anything. We were watching Finding Nemo on the couch, but our shuffling when they got home made it look as if we were coming out of a bedroom. And, they told my parents. And my mom was mortified. And she said, “Do you know how this makes me look?!” And I… I went into hiding. […] When I was 16, and my parents found out that I had a Myspace, and that I had some half-naked pictures posted on my Myspace… I, was met with, a lot of very strong emotion, and I felt a lot of shame, and I went into hiding again.

Lila:  So, this fear of being found out… and having to be so careful and controlled and regimented, just, threads through, your life.

Lee:  Yeah, and it’s interesting, because there are intermittent pieces where I was very risky, in my behavior. I remember in high school, before I could drive, when my parents would drive my boyfriend at the time home — and this happened with a few guys. You know, I’d be sitting in the backseat with my boyfriend, and one of my parents would be driving, and I would, give my boyfriend a blow job or a hand job in the backseat. (Lila chuckles)

Lila:  How’d you manage a blow job?

Lee:  I— you know, it would be for a few seconds at a time. […] And then I’d come back up and, be thrilled that I hadn’t gotten caught.

Lila:  I was gonna ask: when, when was the rebellion, because at some point, that’s gotta crack.

Lee:  Yeah. The rebellion really started to happen in high school. And, mind you, this was never an outward rebellion— this was me creating my own world, of sexuality, and expression. And this was how I felt expressed, was through my sexuality. And simultaneously, how I felt, very, burdened and suppressed.

Lila:  It does seem like it was an outward expression of rebellion though— you’re giving the blow job in the backseat! (giggling)

Lee:  That one, that one yes!

Lila:  But it’s like, Fuck you. I’m gonna have this world, of sexuality, that belongs to me.

Lee:  Yeah. I became very sexually promiscuous from a young age.

Lila:  How young?

Lee:  13. I mean, the first time I had intercourse was 13.

Lila:  Was it good?

Lee:  It wasn’t bad.

[1:20:59]  Lee on her sexual debut.

[1:21:10]

Lee:  It wasn’t painful. And I don’t recall feeling any feelings of regret or remorse after. It was almost like a liberation.

Lila:  Mmm. I can imagine the difference, between you having that experience, and not feeling regret, or remorse, and all of those previous times, when you basically hadn’t been doing almost anything that was a problem, you know, and you were caught and shamed, and you had so much regret and remorse. That then maybe you have intercourse and you quote unquote “get away with it” and you’re like, WhooHOO! Alright! Let’s party!

[1:21:55]  Did Lee get any social flack for being promiscuous in high school?

[1:22:12]

Lee:  I have created a craft of secrecy and curation.

Lila:  […] By that you mean: you’re very specific about what you share with whom?

[1:22:33]  Lee on creating personas that she embodied for other people.

[1:23:10]

Lee:  I imagine it as, me thinking that I am the puppeteer manipulating, the dolls below me, not being able to look up and see that my strings are actually being pulled.

[1:23:49]  Lila & Lee on expressing anger in New York City apartments.

[1:24:10]  Lee on orgasming out loud.

Lee:  You know, one thing I don’t cover my mouth for anymore is when I orgasm. Because I’m like, You know what?

Lila:  Good!

Lee:  Let them hear it. Let them experience my pleasure and may it be their pleasure too!

Lila:  YES, may they be inspired, and titillated. I like hearing— overhearing people in different rooms having sex. I think that’s really fun.

Lee:  Me too. It’s amazing. It turns me on.

Lila:  It’s so exciting!

[1:24:38]  Was Lee’s teenaged sex pleasurable? Did she fake it then?

Lee:  A lot of it was very performance-based. Which is how I proceeded in the rest of my life. There was a lot of pleasurable sex.

Lila:  When you say “performance-based,” you, mean that you were focused on […] getting them off?

Lee:  Very focused on getting them off. Because porn was a form of sex education, I had certain concepts of what a woman needed to look like in the bedroom. So I became very aware of angles, and, the way my body looked in certain positions, and exactly what sounds to make when I was giving a blow job to make it sexy, or exactly what thing to say.

Lila:  So you’re directing yourself and modeling, while having sex.

Lee:  Yes. And it, you know I understand now that it very much took me out of the experience. I was not present for a lot of sex. It’s like my body was there, but I wasn’t.

Lila:  At this point, did you also feel like you had to come for the performance to be complete?

Lee:  Yes. And that it needed to be, a real show.

Lila:  So did you fake it?

Lee:  (pause) There have been times where I have faked it. And, that’s a new commitment that I want to make to myself. That I do not need to perform. For anyone. Ever. And it’s something, to be honest, even in the work that I’ve done with people around sexuality and intimacy, that I still, reconcile in my personal life. Because there is this deep concern for the other, and, I don’t want them to feel insufficient, if I don’t, come. […] It disregards, the, journey that my body wants to go on. The time that my body wants to take with something. […] And how she wants to open up and blossom, or not. And it has just— you know, it’s been a disregarding of that, for so many years.

[1:26:53]  Lila faking orgasm and using your words.

Lila:  That’s one thing that I have never done; I’ve never faked an orgasm. I think early on, I developed a little pithy joke, I would be like, “I don’t want to encourage bad behavior!”

Lee:  I love that. (both giggle)

Lila:  And of course, what I really meant was: I don’t want someone to think that they’re giving me pleasure by what they’re doing if they’re not. […] And so, I am very vocal— naturally very vocal, and… you will know by the sounds that I make, if something is bringing me pleasure, or not. And I have learned, but only in the, only in the time really that I’ve been living at Hacienda Villa have I learned to use my words. To say, “That’s too fast. Could you go higher?” You know, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say, I wouldn’t say even, “Higher, please.” I would, I would just try and scootch my body so that, that I’d put my body in the position that I wanted, for them, to, be licking me. […] Instead of just saying, “Higher please.” Or, “Slower.” Or, even with Anthony at one point, I said, “I’m not ready for that yet.” And, that communication was key. And he’s, I think, had enough experience that he didn’t take it as, something to do with his esteem, or his skills, or his prowess, he just took it as, Oh, she’s not ready for that yet. I’ll do some more of something else, and then maybe in a little bit, she’ll be ready for that. And it’s so amazing how simple it can be, but there’s so few models for it. That anybody has.

[1:28:42]  Lila on Kenneth’s Find the Clit / Find What Feels Good game!

Lila:  I just remember how amazing it was when Kenneth [Note: Episode 69] taught me in the first few months that I was living there, this little, game I guess that he, that he teaches. […] It’s essentially the Find the Clit and Find What Feels Good game. And you can give 3 sets of directions: Slower / Faster, Higher / Lower, and […] More Pressure or Less Pressure. He might phrase it differently. But essentially there were three criteria. And with those three criteria, you could direct someone to essentially your, hot spot!

Lee:  Wow. (pause) That’s— You know it’s really thrilling to hear that. Because it’s not— the concept you’re talking about is very simple.

Lila:  I know!

Lee:  And accessible.

Lila:  I know!

Lee:  And I’m over here like, I really, I honestly in good faith cannot say that I, through the roof, enjoy being eaten out. Because I have not had the language, to, create that experience for myself. And I haven’t utilized the language. I have lived in so much fear around, Oh my God, he’s gonna think this takes too long.

Lila:  Yes.

Lee:  Or he’s gonna get impatient.

Lila:  Yes, of course.

Lee:  Or he’s not gonna wanna do this. Yet. I know that I’m willing to give plenty of time giving a salacious blow job. Nobody ever seems to be concerned about my time! (Lila laughs heartily) I mean honestly, they’re just sitting there and they’re

Lila & Lee:  enjoying it!

Lila: […]  I also do sometimes still have that, of like, Oh, it’s taking too long, or sometimes I’ll be like, “It’s not, it’s not gonna happen right now.” And then when, a man has been… strong enough, in his desire to, for me to have pleasure, that he’s like, “Shut up!” Or pushes my hand aside and continues. That’s been amazing. When I’ve been like, I’ll give you this out. You don’t have to do this anymore, and he’s like “Shut up! I am—”

Lee:  I love that!

Lila:  “I am giving you this!” […] That has been really gorgeous. And healing. Healing for all the times that I was worried and all the partners who maybe did, did feel that way. You know, or didn’t enjoy it that much. […] I’ve had recently, a few lovers who really love doing it, and that’s been, also a breakthrough for me, is when I’m with. When I’m with someone, and I discovered, I think first with a German lover that I had when I was traveling in two thousand— Nope! That’s not true! My very very first person who licked my pussy, gave me oral sex, he also loved it. And that was what allowed me to have such an amazing, experience, and incredible orgasm. Because, I could relax. I knew that he loved it. I knew that he wanted to be doing it. I knew that it gave him pleasure, whether or not it was hard was not important. Whether or not he was hard during it was not indicative of how much he was enjoying it, that he really did like it and like the sensation, like looking at me that way, and liked my taste and liked my smell, and if I could relax around that, because I’d had one encounter with a boy in high school who, made a joke about fish, and like theatrically fished a pubic hair out of his teeth and so I felt after that, Oh, maybe I don’t smell very good or it’s, maybe I have to get rid of the hair or nobody’s gonna wanna— you know? Wanna go down on me. And to be with someone who just, thoroughly enjoys it has been: a balm. Has been medicine. For me to just give myself over. And if I sense that they are getting tired, that they’re not really enjoying it, or that they’re frustrated or something, I probably won’t come.

Lee:  Right.

Lila:  I probably won’t.

Lee:  Right! And it’s so medicinal to hear you talk about this, because, it’s something that I continuously in the past have struggled with, and my last, boyfriend, that partner I was with two years ago… did not, enjoy it. On a whole. Did not enjoy it. And was very concerned about his own pleasure. And we had worked through that a lot throughout our relationship. But I was always afraid to take up space in that relationship: in bed, sleeping. Emotionally, sexually. And so I became very closed-off, even thought that is not my natural way of being. And so I’m, I feel that I’m on this journey now, you know, as I’ve chosen to take everything off the table. As I’m starting to reintroduce aspects of my own sexuality to myself, and to choosing suitors— that feels really important for me. You know, I’ve been thinking about what I want to create for myself in 2019, and, Fuck! I wanna create the sexiest most pleasurable consensual lovemaking experience this year. Where I feel expressed and, taken care-of and nourished and supported, and just absolutely adored.

70. tiger mom: horizontal with a recovering perfectionist

My name is Lila, and I love sleepovers, spooning, sharing, storytelling, sex, and stargazing, among other things. So I metaphorically rolled them up in audio form and called it a podcast. Horizontal with lila is Slow Radio. It’s intimacies of all kinds. It’s consensual eavesdropping.