35. gay no matter who: horizontal with a circler

This is Josh with cake, at Connection Camp. (And a supportive and enthusiastic Dave Bobb.) The cake was a component of the Color Wars, but I can’t remember why…

http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/6608586

Josh:  And with her, one of the things that— fantasies that popped into my head very quickly, was, it would be really hot if, like, we flip-fucked and I fucked her and then she fucked me. And so that’s, when you said the strap-on, it make me think of that.

Lila:  Right, pegging.

pegging (verb) = the act of fucking a person (typically, in the anus) with a strap-on, particularly used to denote when a vagina-owner uses a strap-on to perform anal penetration on a penis-owner.

strap-on (noun) = a sex toy, typically in the shape of a cock and attached to a harness (so that the wearer can literally strap it on) that one might use to penetrate a human orifice that can reasonably be penetrated, utilized in various possible scenarios, some of which may be: one does not currently possess a cock, or the cock involved is not currently standing erect.

Josh:  But you mean more, in place of, my own, when it’s not— of my penis when it’s not working. (chuckles) Not so much, someone fucking me with a strap-on, but—

Lila:  I did, but I—

Josh:  Yeah.

Lila:  —am, delighted to have this piece of information. (both giggle)

Josh:  I also thought of threesomes a lot, with her— I thought that would have been fun.

Lila:  Totally.

Josh:  And, interestingly, I guess I would just say—

Lila:  But nothing ever happened with that?

Josh:  Well, what happened with it was really … she didn’t wanna kiss. And for me that was a huge … thing and she just said, “Oh well someti— it’s a ‘mood thing’ and sometimes I am more—’ as, I was like, ‘No. That’s not true. I don’t buy that.’ I, you know, I wanna trust people at their word but, I I found that hard to, I didn’t sit with that well, that it’s a mood thing and that you feel like kissing sometimes and not others. I mean, yes, but not … when you’re being, like, intimate with somebody. That seems weird. (under his breath) Maybe. But. That being said it’s just— that’s a big deal for me. And that— it’s sort of a dealbreaker. And I didn’t feel … I imagined, uhhh, more of a willingness, for intimacy on my part than for hers, in that, there’s a whole bunch of things coming up around her … nnn— feeling like a sexual object, and… it seemed like my desire was triggering that?

Lila:  Not in a sexy way.

Josh:  Not really I mea— yeah, ‘cuz, she would sorta go back and forth on, sort of like, being in this role and then sort of being, “I’m gonna sleep with every man on campus and, blahblahblah,” and it’s like, “Ok. Do you.”  (Josh laughs, Lila chuckles) I don’t know. I don’t know what to tell you on that one. Um—

Lila:  Or “do them,” as the case may be.

Josh:  Right. But it was, yeah, it was really interesting, it just— to touch her. It’s still there, we’re still close friends, but umm. To physically touch her, to put my hand on her stomach, or um, you know, we made out; I’ve touched her breasts, um, and most of her body, but we never got to a, a sexual point, essentially. And for me… I don’t see how I would get to that point without kissing… (Lila mm’s) That’s, like that’s an issue for me. So—

Lila:  Yeah, I understand.

Josh:  So— and then what happened was really just more— we were both doing energy healing, we were in the same class and, there was a lot of stuff coming up for both of us and we just— the energy just like, whooo… There was this huge sexual energy that was between us, and f— and definitely was pulling us towards each other, and then suddenly, it was like the air went out of a balloon, and there was nothing.

Lila:  Like after your ener— (Josh giggles)

Josh:  Huh?

Lila:  Like after your energetic solo sex experiences.

Josh:  Sort of, yeah.

Lila:  That’s how you described it, actually.

Josh:  I know! That’s true. It’s like all the energy just went: whooo. … And I suddenly noticed that I just wasn’t drawn to find out what she was doing, or, you know, spend time with her. That I wanted to be alone. And she wasn’t reaching out to me and so I sort of assumed it was the same. So we went through a month period, and then I started going through all this, you know, I was going to the hospital; I was going through a bunch of physical stuff, so, sexuality went ffcchp! (Josh laughs)

Lila:  Way, way, low on the list, then.

Josh:  Right. Um. Yeah. So we went through a period of a month or so where we just, didn’t really talk to each other at all, and now, we’ve reconnected, more as friends, and just it— and decided that that’s, not gonna happen, essentially, but, yeah it was, I mean it was fascinating to have that— to have those feelings come up, to realize a couple— I realized a lot of stuff. One was: In relationship to her, I definitely felt more masculine in my sexuality than I have. And I think that’s ‘cause she was a woman. As opposed to, innn, relationship to men.

Lila:  Does she have a feminine gender expression?

Josh:  She seems very balanced, to me, in her masculine/feminine. It felt like whatever her balance of masculine and feminine was, it really supported me, to be fully in, in my own balance of it, essentially.

Lila:  Ooohh, interesting. That must be very compelling.

Josh: Yeah. That was, I mean, that was a la— a large part of the, the energy I think, and uhh… What I noticed from that was … a lot abou— w— I mean— I was, I was looking at a lot about my masculinity that was coming out at that time, and taking more of an active role in my life, more so than it ever has before. So, there was a lot, of stuff around that, and— but what I really noticed was that: Being a gay man doesn’t have anything to do with my sexuality for me. And that, I could, follow the thoughts of, you know: What if we had a relationship? Would I have a baby with this woman? Like all of these things. And yes I would, and through all of that? I would still be a gay man. I don’t care. Like it’s, that’s regardl— like, that does not matter to me, it’s— I’m a gay man because I’m part of a identity as— and I like that identity and I don’t wanna, let it go. And it, it’s, sort of irrelevant who I’m sleeping with.

*

Lila:  I have an ex right now who is … (chuckles) I was gonna say, “poking around again,” (Josh laughs) I mean, he’s not, he’s not actually — poking — again.

Josh:  Uh-huh.

Lila:  At this point.

I … felt like I was in love with him. We were together for just a few months; it was really sudden. He was a lawyer; he was— totally dedicated to his work, and has political aspirations, and he told me — basically, in the first few weeks — that I would never be number one priority. (Josh hm’s) And I said, “Never?! I mean— “ (Josh laughs) Is there— there’s no situation in which you would put your partner above your work? And that—

Josh:  OHhh.

Lila:  — broke my heart a little bit. And thennn… broke my heart a bit more, by— he was a super poly guy, right? And I was wanting to cultivate that kind of safer space for myself, where I would be more interested in group sex or, plural, something— nn— you know? And, also to get deep into my kinky side, ‘cause he was a Dom. (Josh uhhuhs)

Dom (noun) = a male-identifying person who directs a BDSM, fetish, or fantasy-oriented play scenario, often the counter-role to a submissive. [female-identifying version of the same is referred to as a Dominatrix, or domme]

And I, I did want to explore that very much. I did wind up learning later that, he’s not necessarily the kind of Dom that I— want. (Josh mm’s) ‘Cause he’s a … I think he is, sadistic, and what I actually want is a service top, someone who’s domming me for my pleasure. (Josh uhhuhs)  Not doing what they like for their pleasure, because that’s not my kink. Some women— I know one, who has that kink. She wants— men to use her for their pleasure, and that just does it for her, and that does not do it for me. (Lila giggles, Josh uhhuhs) But I thought that I could really, finally — ‘cause I was, I was very sexually attracted to him — get deep into my sexuality, which I had never really done before. And explore BDSM in a, in a, within the context of a loving partnership, which was what I wanted very much. (big sigh) And then he broke up with me by text message.

Josh:  (laughs) Aww.

Lila:  EGHH! I was so —

Josh:  Why not a post-it?

Lila:  Exactly! (Josh laughs) Exactly. Why not a post-it?

Josh:  (laughs) Wow.

Lila:  I was, I was like, “I thought you were supposed to be a fucking adult.” (Josh giggles) You’re making, whatever, six figures a year, you— have this— big career. Be a man. Be a man and look me in the eye and talk to me about— the demise of our relationship.

[Note: Lila does not actually think this has anything to do with being a man. More with being an adult. She kind of regrets that she said that. But that is how it came out of her mouth that day.]

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  Since, a few months ago, you looked me in the eye and said, “I haven’t felt this way in seven years.” (Josh chuckles) “I haven’t felt this way in seven years; I love you.” You know, and, it felt so— diminishing, of what we had had together. And so I was … became — after the sadness, ‘cause sadness is my go-to, I’ll go to sadness first before anything. (Josh mm’s) Became very angry. And, he wouldn’t, see me. I said, “Please, can we just talk about this, in person?” I wasn’t trying to sway his decision—

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  But I wanted to have that …

Josh:  Yeah.

Lila:  Essentially conscious uncoupling is what I wanted.

conscious uncoupling (noun) = a romantic break-up characterized by clear communication, compassion, and positive regard, i.e. to break up in such a way that the separation empowers the people involved, and they can remain friends, even co-parent together amicably. The term was popularized by the marriage therapist Katherine Woodward Thomas.

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  And he wouldn’t see me until se— he said, “I can’t, I can’t do it. I’m hurting.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? Yeah, me too, can we?” So. (sigh) It was many months later that he agreed to see me. And it was almost as though nothing happened; he was trying to just— I had to push him to speak about our breakup and it still did not feel— closed, did not feel— (Josh mm’s) It did not feel aired. Many months go by, maybe a year goes by, and he starts, writing to me, and… writing me sexy things and Dom-y things and, saying what he wants to do to me, and one night — after, actually, a small Circling evening of four or five people at someone’s house … he sends me an Uber, to come to his place. (Josh mmhm’s) And I’m— really nervous and I still want that closure, but I’m also totally underfucked at this point, ‘cause I will also go months, sometimes a year without, without having sex.

underfucked (adjective/noun) = a modern day epidemic in American society, particularly for those who identify as women, the quality or condition of having much less sex than one would really like. Symptoms include, but are not limited to: irritability, brittleness, anger management problems, irrational career decisions, bouts of sadness, loneliness, and clinical depression, skin hunger, increased anxiety, and the unwillingness to watch sex scenes in movies.

skin hunger (noun) = discomfort caused by the lack of skin-to-skin contact in a person’s life. A major source of depression.

[Visual aid: This informational video by Kim Anami, titled The Epidemic of Sexually Unfulfilled Females (Very Widespread)]

The Epidemic of Sexually Unfulfilled Females (Very Widespread)

No Description

Josh:  That’s a great way of putting it, by the way. (Josh laughs, Lila laughs) “Under-fucked.”

Lila:  Underfucked.

Josh:  God my whole life has been underfucked then. (Josh giggles)

Lila:  Right, I woul—

Josh:  Except for cucumbers.

Lila:  — like to change that. (Except for cucumbers!) (both laugh) I hope that we can both change this—

Josh:  Yeah.

Lila:  — situation. For both of us. And … I arrive, and it’s almost— wordless because we’re kind of entering right into a scene. But we haven’t pre-negotiated anything, so it’s really not well done. (Josh mmhm’s) And he kind of, puts me in the shower, and I am— I’ve gone into just submissive-land…

[Note: the oft-used term for this is subspace.]

subspace (noun) = a blissfully altered state, the quality of surrendering control so completely that one enters “flow.” Typically used to refer to a pinnacle experience enjoyed by a submissive in a BDSM scene. Potentially characterized by extreme sensual pleasure, a feeling of peace, the diminishment or eradication of thoughts, and increased pain tolerance.

—and I’m cold, and I don’t say anything, and he eventually, he, he asks me how I’m feeling and I say I’m cold and he takes— you know, he takes me out of the shower, and dries me off and warms me up, and puts me under the covers, and then, starts to … dominate me sexually and I start to cry. And, the crying turns into weeping and the weeping turns into sobbing. And, I’ve never gotten to cry in front of this man, who broke my heart (Josh mmhm’s) and had him witness … what happened within me because, of what we had, that was then broken. And, he … lets it happen for just a little bit— and if he had let it happen for a bit longer, I would have cried myself out, ‘cause it actually happens with me quite quickly. I’ll have a really strong emotion, and if I release it just as strongly it passes quite quickly. (Josh mmhm’s) And then I can— transition into something else. But he— stopped me, and said, “Whoa whoa, what’s … what’s going on?” (pause) And I … I said, “I just need to cry. Can’t you just let me cry?” He’s like, “No, this seems really like too much,” basically. (Josh mmhm’s) And I wind up, stopping the crying but like turning off a faucet. Which I can do. (Josh mmhm’s) But it’s not healthy.

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  It’s like gumming up the works, right. And I stop. And he says, “I, I don’t think we should— continue,” and I said, “Well, can’t you just fuck me vanilla?” And we did. And, he is so big, that every time he entered me, there was not one time that I felt, comfortable. (Josh mmhm’s) Comfortably full. Every single time it was like— (huge gasp!) “Oh, that’s really intense that’s really— oh that’s really intense that’s really intense that’s rea— whooo, ok, breathe deeply, that’s really intense, that’s rea—” (Josh mm’s) And, that is not the desire that I have. (Josh mmhm’s) That’s not the kind of filled that, turns me on or that I really want to be. And on this particular night, I had my period and I had a Diva Cup in —  

Diva Cup (noun) = a menstrual cup (name brand), used in place of tampons and pads, which is inserted into the vagina to catch the blood in a little reservoir. It can be easily removed, emptied, sterilized, and re-inserted.

—which is, like a, a silicone cup that suctions up inside and catches the menstrual blood. And I forgot that I had it in, and I forgot to take it out. So in addition to his enormous cock inside me, I had this Diva Cup poking in! (Josh laughs) And I didn’t realize it until much later, after I went home. And then I thought, Oh my God. Am I gonna be able to get it out? And I just, said, Ok, I’m not gonna— I’m just not really gonna think about it. I’m just not gonna think about it. It’s gonna come out. And I bore down a little bit and it didn’t come out, and I was like, ok, I’m just gonna— I’m just gonna go to sleep, ya know? (both giggle) I’m just—

Josh:  Give it some time.

Lila:  Just give it some time. And actually it did. It descended, and eventually kind of, pushed itself back to a place where I could pull it out. (Josh mmhm’s) But I definitely had a very concerning moment… So, Christopher … while I was with Alex, had been— messaging me. And, he initially made contact and said, “Hey, you’re still doing Thai bodywork? I’d like a session.” I was like, “Sure! I’ll take your money.” You know? And, we set up a session. And then, he, kept saying, “Is there anything else I can do for you? Lingerie? Dinner?” And I said, “Well, you know how I like sushi.” And so he, sent me, I think it was an open— open table reservation (Josh mmhm’s) for a sushi place, on the day, I think, that I was gonna work on him. And, he was asking me about my partner… and I said, “We’re monogamous,” and I didn’t say m— anything else. (Josh mmhm’s) Just, kind of cut off the conversation right there. And then … he kept saying, “You know, I could, I could send you something to use with your partner,” and I very briefly broached it with Alex and he was like, “That is— disgusting. That’s sick.” And I said, ok! Won’t broach it again! Ok! And, didn’t bring it up, again. And, I said, “No. That’s not necessary. I’ll just come over and give you a session.” You know. And the day before he said, “Oh, I’ve, I’ve misunderstood.” And he canceled the session. I was like, You didn’t misunderstand, motherfucker. You just, didn’t get what you wanted. (Josh mm’s) But, it’s now many months later, and I am again underfucked, and he’s been reaching out again. (Josh mm’s) And he was in Paris and he … he quit his job, and then he’s been traveling. So when he reached out, the last time, I told him about the podcast ….. And then … I reached out to him, this, this most recent time. And he’s been asking me, “Do you have any prospects? Do you have any lovers that you’re gonna see on your trip?” And so finally, you know, it comes out that he has this particular fetish with me, and with, he said, one other woman, that he’s been with in his life. And he’s super, super poly, super sexual— well maybe not poly, actually. He’s super into ethical nonmonogamy, where he has multiple ongoing partners, because he’s not so much about novelty as his is about variety. And so, I asked him once, what was his ideal, and he said it was to see, to have like, three, three lovers that he saw regularly and then, kind of, wildcard lovers, that was his (Josh mm’s) his thing that he was interested in. (big breath) And so he apparently has this fetish with me, ‘cause he asked again, right? Who are you gonna see; Can I send you some money, to— for drinks, or for an Uber, or? And I said, “What’s, what is this, fetish?” There’s something about … so when he was, my, boyfriend, my partner — we were monogamous for the time that we were together — and he, would, Dom me, and the power play that he would use is he would say, “I own you.” (Josh mm’s) And he would have me repeat it. And then he would ask me every once in a while. And, I would repeat it. (softly) You own me. And, so I think, after having hurt me so badly, there’s a kink in his mind, related to me, about not being able to own me. (Josh mm’s) So, he wants to, send me money to facilitate me being with other lovers … and then he would like to watch me, with another lover, (Josh mm’s) and would like me to send him stories and tell him about me being with other lovers.

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  And I think it’s kinda hot. (both laugh)

Josh:  I’m down for dat.

Lila:  I think it’s kinda hot. But I, will only, you know, he keeps pressing me to tell him about someone I’m planning to see along the way, and I said, “I will only tell you if he’s comfortable with it.” (Josh mm’s) I’m not going to tell you even about him, unless he’s comfortable with it.

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  And I don’t know that I actually wanna broach it with this person. Because … I’m actually kind of interested in them. But, this is an interesting prospect and I’ve been thinking about what lingerie do I want? (both laugh) And I also have an interest in a situation where I know the people, to see what it would be like, would I enjoy being watched in that scenario?

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  I’m curious … and there’s still so much that I want to explore. I want to do it in a way that feels good. Or at least, you can’t— you can’t predict or determine, but— I wanna go in … feeling good.

Welcome in to horizontal, the podcast about intimacy of all kinds, that’s recorded while the opposite of vertical.

Josh amongst paintings, one of his natural habitats.

In this episode, I lie down with my friend Josh. Josh and I met at Circling, which is a sort of inter-relational meditation.

Whereas in meditation with oneself, I may sit silently with my eyes closed, observing my internal landscape, the sensations in my body, my cloud-thoughts as they pass and my hamster-wheel thoughts as they come back around — in Circling, I have my attention not only on myself, but also on the others around me, how their presence and the shifts in the room affect me, the stories I make up about them (sometimes thought of as assumptions), and what I imagine about their internal landscapes.

In Circling, I try to hold a deep, articulate awareness of myself while also endeavoring to be lushly present with others, attuned to the nuances of how they affect me, and I affect them. I believe that when it’s done right, Circling is a practice of deep empathy, both for what it might feel like to be someone else, but also, compassion paired with a certain kind of respect for what it feels like to be me in the moment. A reverence for the truth of the moment. That is the context in which Josh and I met.

Josh is a fashion design-trained, floridly creative visual artist of many mediums: a baker, a cook, and new Circling facilitator.

In Circling, he acts as an emotional lightning rod and visionary. He often expresses through sound, vibration, and convulsions, emotions that feel present in the room but latent— feelings that others are either unaware of or unwilling to express. When I say that he is a visionary Circler, I mean that literally. He has visions. He’ll often have his eyes closed, and when he opens them, he sometimes shares images that came to him during someone’s expression — and there’s usually something uncannily relevant about it. Sometimes, an object in the image is meaningful to the person, at other times he seems to intuit what they desire in the moment but haven’t thought to ask for. I often feel awe when he describes these images, and hearing him so bold with his associations has opened a gateway for me to be bolder with mine. He embodies one of the core principles of Circling Europe: Trust Your Experience.

We recorded this episode in his trailer at the Omega Institute, the adult spiritual-person version of an expensive, short-term sleepaway camp. Josh had almost completed his 6-month work commitment there when I visited. We recorded in the early morning, during a rainstorm. The pitter-patter of the rain on the tin trailer is so sweet.

In the first half of our episode together, titled “that was a big cucumber: horizontal with a gay reiki master,” we talked about unintentional celibacy, Josh’s first gay stirrings, spandex guy, the right vegetables to put up your butt, and porn energy work.

In this second part of the episode, we discuss my text-message breakup, being underfucked, who owns you, and the fact that josh is a gay man no matter who he’s having sex with. I told you it was my gayest episode yet.

Yet. Give me a little time.

Pretty sure you know what to do at this point, dear ones. Come lie down with us.

Connection Camp 2016, organized by Amy Silverman’s The Connection Movement, post- Color Wars.

If you enjoy lying down with Josh and I, become a patron of the horizontal arts! Patreon is an innovation in the life of the artist. It’s a website that crowdsources income on a monthly basis. It can make it possible for me to continue creating independent, uncensored, ad-free homemade radio. My intention is to keep this podcast ad-free, but also to make this my primary career. Show me that you believe in my mission of cultivating intimacy across the world (and dislike ads)!

Become a Patron!

---

Links to Things:

Fierce on the orange team at Connection Camp 2016.

Patron of the horizontal arts!

My horizontal does america tour, on which I recorded this episode!

Circling (the practice that Josh and I share)

Omega Institute, the expensive spiritual adult-person type summer camp where Josh was working when we recorded this episode

The Connection Movement, the locus of Circling in New York City, curated by Amy Silverman 

Connection Camp, curated by Amy, co-founded by Amy & JJ, which Josh and I both attended in the Summer of 2016.

The Billy DeFrank LGBT Community Center, where young Josh went to a queer youth group

---

Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to iTunes, this website, or my Patreon!):

iTunes link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/horizontal-with-lila/id1238031115&ls=1

website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/

Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila

[6:28]  Josh on his love for and desire to be intimate with women, and almost complete absence of sexual desire for them.

[6:48]

Josh:  And, with guys, that’s— all I could think of … I m— really, I mean, since that, that first guy, I mean really I was just all about sex is what I was thinking about, I mean he was this face— you know, this nameless faceless guy that gets on a bus.

Lila:  But, we salute you—

Josh:  But looks—

Lila:   — Spandex guy.

Josh:  But looks good in Spandex!

[7:17]  Josh on his coming-out process and life at his arts high school.

[11:21]

Josh:  Didn’t really know, I just thought, “Well, maybe I’m gay, maybe I’m bisexual,” at that point, didn’t really think about it much beyond that. And I took dance class instead of— we could opt out of P.E. — that was another reason I think, why, there was such separation between the two is that, I didn’t have to be in a shower room with g— other guys and stuff like that.

Lila:  Absolutely.

Josh:  So. There w— we, I took dance, annnd, there were several gay boys in dance, and…found out that one of them was attracted to me— I wasn’t that into him, but … I wanted to know what things were like! (Josh chuckles)

Lila:  Yeah, you wanted experiences.

Josh:  And I was pretty honest, you know…he did really state that he was really looking for more of a relationship— and, and I said, “Well, I’m— you know, physically attracted and curious, but I’m not really into you in that way, but.” And he said that wouldn’t work, and that we should just be friends, and then, he gave in. (both giggle) Which— eh— I ended up, maybe I was a little hurtful towards him at s— at a— at some point. But, uhmm—

Lila:  Yeah, well. He probably also hurt himself on you.

Josh:  (somewhat hesitantly) Y— eah.

Lila:  Right, because you, you did state at the beginning— and I’ve done that a lot—

Josh:  (overlapping) I did try to be honest.

Lila:  (overlapping) So I’ve been in that position, a lot. Where someone has told me, and I have not— is it, Maya Angelou who says when a, when a— a man shows you who he is, believe him? Something like that.

[Note: Lila slightly misquoted her, but this quote is indeed attributed to Maya Angelou: “When a man tells you who he is… believe him.”]

Josh:  Oooh, yeah.

Lila:  And—

Josh:  Sounds like something she might have said.

Lila:  And so, that happened many many times. And I chose to do it anyway, and I chose to, to (Josh chuckles) harm myself on that person.

Josh:  (still rather dubious) Yeah. That’s true.

Lila:  They chose to engage with me—

Josh:  Sure.

Lila:  So they took part in it, it’s not that— they— are … un-attached to the situation, they—

Josh:  Right.

Lila:  — were part of the situation.

Josh:  Of course.

Lila:  (beat) But … it was my choice… when I was told—  (laugh full of chagrin) “You know, I’m not emotionally available. I’m not in a place. I just got out of something. Etc.”

Josh:  Yeah, I guess just— his name was Eddie, with Eddie, we fooled around and, there was some oral sex, I think — not a lot — it was mostly just making out and being intimate, and then he, insisted … (quiet) yeah, he pretty much insisted — he was going to a queer youth group at the gay and lesbian center, and, the— we were in San Jose, it’s the Billy DeFrank Gay & Lesbian Center —  nice plug for them. (Josh guffaws) They still exist.

Lila:  I will link to them. [Note: True to my word.]

Josh:  And they had a, a teen— groups that met just to talk about being queer, and all that comes up with that, and he, really wanted me to go … and I didn’t want to, but, eventually ish— I just said, “Okay, sure.” And I did and… met … this black boy … Kershawn … who, went to my high school and I didn’t know he went to my high school until I met him at this queer youth group.

Lila:  Was he part of the athletic crowd?

Josh:  Um? No, I don’t think so. But he wasn’t part of the—

Lila:  — the arts.

Josh:  The artistic—

Lila:  — program.

Josh:  Yeah, no, he was just sort of, on his own. Yeah, and I just, I never had noticed him, didn’t know him at all, and suddenly, met this boy, and so, it was pretty much like, “Ohh, bye Eddie.”

Lila:  (a groan) Ohhhhh.

Josh:  Thanks for introducing me to someone else. (Josh guffaws)

Lila:  Oooh, yeah. Ouch.

Josh:  And…and that happened. And I learned from Kershawn what a do-rag is, ‘cause I didn’t know that before.

Lila:  A do-rag?

Josh:  ‘Cause I went over to his house, and he had a waterbed, and, I blew him on his waterbed—

Lila:  (tickled pink) He had a waterbed! (Josh giggles) Oh my gosh! So 90s.

Josh:  Ye-eaah. I had a waterbed too, actually, but, weee… yeah, we dated for— a little while, but it was more just fooling around whenever we got— like, hanging out and fooling around, really, we didn’t date date, but … and thennn … shortly after that I actually had my first boyfriend — his name was Daniel.

[15:49]  How Josh met his first boyfriend. (Spoiler alert: doing make-up for a theatre company.)

[17:00]

Lila:  Do you like threesomes?

Josh:  I believe… uhhg, let’s see. Part of the belief of feeling that I have broken sexuality, would be that I believe in a— not that there’s, I don’t believe that this exists, but in a “safe setting,” Uhhumm. (Josh chuckles)

Lila:  Right. A safer setting.

Josh:  That there are many things that I would be into that I have not experienced a comfortable— as a comfortable experience in my life, uhm, so far.

Lila:  I feel the same.

Josh:  I’ve had many threesome experiences— I’ve only had oral sex threesome experiences, actually, to be fair. I’ve never had a threesome experience that turned into a—

Lila:  Penetrative experience?

Josh:  Penetrative expe— yeah. Aaand… it’s been uncomfortable. I, I guess I would say. But I, I think— I can imagine a situation where it, it was more open and there was an equal attraction to ea— to everyone, annd, more communication, and, uhhh … […] I think that I might; I imagine that I could enjoy it more. I also think, we were talking about the voyeurism: I feel that would be— I haven’t engaged in that, and I feel…that could be a lot— ehhh— if I felt free to step into more of a voyeuristic state when I want to be, then that would allow for a more, of a, an open li— a threesome that I would feel— like, allowing myself to have my own time away from that and then, you know, and just being more present with, where I am—

Lila:  Yes.

Josh:  That, I can imagine, could be, a lot better.

[19:20]  Lila on her lawyer ex and his cuckholding fetish.

[35:22]  Josh muses about his inner voyeur and listening while other people have sex.

[36:05]

Josh:  Something happens when I’m in love with someone there’s some point— there’s some point in loving someone that there’s uhhh, a sexual, desire comes in, even with women— uhh, it doesn’t stay as long with women, actually it’s usually more of a flash but I ‘ve— I have thought of all of my friends sexually in some way or another. If I, care for them deeply.

[36:37]  Lila wonders if this might be a form of demisexuality.

[36:53]

Lila:  Demisexuality, as I understand it, is that you don’t feel a strong sexual pull towards people until you are emotionally invested with them. Emotionally connected to them.

Josh:  I do think that’s probably true, and I think that’s why it takes— that’s why I go through so many, long periods of just, um, being underfucked.

Lila:  Yeah, and there’s a lot of demisexuals in the world, but because, our society (heavy sigh) both prizes and punishes sexuality, but it’s such a, a buzzworthy topic, (Josh mm’s) I think a lot of demisexual people don’t, speak about it because they feel they are, in some way, broken.

Josh:  Yeah, because, unless you have a lover, then you’re out of luck, essentially.

[37:49]  Josh on his first three (slutty) (thin) years in New York.

[37:57]

Josh:  I’d lost, all the weight. It’s the thinnest I’d ever been. And that’s played a role in my sexuality, just being comfortable being naked around people.

[39:11]  The last relationship Josh had in New York.

[39:25]

Josh:  I was so into him, so turned on by him, but I still couldn’t maintain an erection. And we had a great sex life, ‘cause I would eat his ass, and, like I mean (laughs) like, and like, finger fuck him and, like I mean, I, you know, I could still — but, but we just couldn’t really do the penetration thing, and at some point, I insisted that we open the relationship, ‘cause I felt really bad, ‘cause he was ten years younger than I am and, he was like twenty-four or something, twenty-three or twenty-four at the time. And I just was like, “You’re in your — you’re in a sexual prime, like: Go! Li— (laughs) I don’— you know. If I can’t give it to you, please, go get it somewhere else, so—

Lila:  But did he want you to—

Josh:  —He wanted it to be—

Lila:  —set him free?

Josh:  He wanted that stuff, but at the same time, he wanted it to be with me. He, he, would have preferred to be in an o— in a monogamous re— relationship and— but still getting his meed— needs met, you know?

Lila:  So you, couldn’t in that, in those instances give penetrative sex, but what about receiving it?

Josh:  (big inhale) With us it didn’t— it was very clear energetically that I was the top and he was the bottom.

top (noun) = referring to a person and/or position (sexual or non-sexual) that is physically, emotionally, or mentally giving the energy from the top position; for instance in homosexual relationships between cock-owners, the giver of anal penetration. Sometimes also used to refer to the person in a dominant sexual role within BDSM, but they are not always synonymous.

bottom (noun) = referring to a person and/or position (sexual or non-sexual) that is physically, emotionally, or mentally receiving the energy from the top position; for instance in homosexual relationships between cock-owners, the receiver of anal penetration. Sometimes also used to refer to the person in a submissive sexual role within BDSM, but they are not always synonymous.

Lila:  Ok,

Lila:  is that— Josh:  It was—

Lila:  Usual for you?

Josh:  It is usual for me that I have a sense of which I want with someone, yeah. That I see somebody and I’m like “Ohhwuh, goddamn, I need to sit on that dick,” or, (Lila giggles) or I’m like, “I wanna fuck the crap out of him so bad!”

[41:04]  Does Josh consider himself primarily a top, or a bottom, or both?

Josh:  I feel for myself, I’m pretty much right in the, I feel open and equal, like I am both. I’m a fluid top and bottom, like that, that, the— there’s no priority there. But it is, very based on my connection with an individual, and I, it— one comes up stronger than the other. Sometimes, ideally, in a long-term relationship, I would love to m— meet someone where, it was more fluid with them, and we could just really move in and out, and that would be great, ‘cause that’s what I would really like. But with Michael, it was very much, umm— he really is more of a bottom, and that, I’m sure that probably has something to do with it, but it, was just very clear that I wanted, to fuck him, and, we did try. It just didn’t do much for him, and um, and I think, because of that, probably didn’t do much for me in the— yeah.

Lila:  I think that’s often true for a switch in BDSM as well, that you, get a sense of really, which way you wanna play it, with a particular person, the alchemy of those two people.

[42:32]  Josh on being extremely kinky, game for a lot, and not having had the opportunity to experience most of what he’s interested in.

[43:25]

Lila:  Would it be inconceivably kinky, or— in the sense of, being— out there or strange, for you to use a strap-on?

Josh:  Oooh, that, that, there’s something I wanna tell you and then leads in well to it.

[43:42]  Josh tells Lila about a woman he had a sexual energy with while working at Omega.

[44:34]  Josh on being a gay man no matter who he is having sex with.

[51:26]  Does Lila feel the identity of bisexual?

[52:56]  What came up around his mom and emasculation, when he was engaging with the woman on campus?

[53:56]  Josh tells Lila a story about coming out to his mother, and her medical state.

http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/6608586

Liked it? Take a second to support horizontalwithlila on Patreon!