This is my dear friend Matthew Stillman in 2010. [note: skull in background. I COMPLETELY did not notice it when I took the shot!]
http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/6500845
Matthew: I’ve sat with … probably about 4,000 people, total … over the years. Talking about personal and professional things, big or small, weird or totally mundane. And not ever trying to give advice, but trying to help people look at whatever’s going on in their lives, that they want to talk about in a creative way. I’m not particularly interested in solving, although solving sometimes happens. The way I got out there, was … I was in a job, a consulting job, that I got laid off from in 2009. And at the time, I was also taking a course called Creativity and Personal Mastery and the course— the last exercise in the course that everyone had to write— anonymous love letters to everyone else in the course. And so, I got this 24-page binder … the same week that my job ended. And this was March, of 2009. Early March. I had made a film— a feature-length documentary film about the origins of poverty, and why it persists, in a world where there’s so much wealth, called The End of Poverty? (with a question mark) that had premiered at the Cannes Film Festival and had gone to their— in 2008, but was having its theatrical release in 2009, in November. So I had a job that was starting full-time in August or September, promoting the film. And because the economy had just collapsed, I knew there was no way that I was gonna get, sort of, like, a “summer gig.” … But in this notebook that I got, with these 24 love letters, all of them basically said the same thing, which was: You seemingly can help us look at any … situation, about anything at all, in really interesting, creative ways … and I never feel like you’re trying to tell us what to do. You don’t give advice; It’s really great. You should find some way of doing something with that. And that was said in different ways, but that was basically the gist, the, the thread that connected all of them. And I’d heard this sort of thing before, but I never, had heard it, when I suddenly had a big gap of time … and so I … decided to say yes to this instruction — and so I got some folding chairs, and a table, and printed a sign, and went out there on April 1st, 2009. On that first day … I had a line, of people, waiting to talk to me. I spoke with, almost 40 people that first day.
Lila: Huh!
Matthew: And some people paid me and some people didn’t, and all that was fine, I didn’t want there to be any barrier, on paying.
Lila: The other sign. Give what you can or take what you need. Matthew: Pay—
Matthew: Pay what you like or take what you need.
Lila: Mm.
Matthew: So, that just started— people started paying, in different amounts, on that first day, and I thought, I guess I’ll do this! So just, I went out there, all the time. In 2009. Until the fall. And I sort of slowed down, and then— sort of got into a rhythm of doing that, and that was part of what I was doing with my life.
Welcome in to horizontal with lila, the podcast that makes private conversations public. We discuss intimacy of all kinds while “the opposite of vertical,” wearing cozy robes. Listener ghostheart says that horizontal, “takes you into my bed and lets your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.” I like this description.
Matthew & the skull, in Greece.
In the second half of our episode, I lie down with my dear friend of 11 years, Matthew Stillman.
Matthew Stillman is a genius. Matt’s friendship, ingenuity, keen interest, curiosity, sheer breadth of knowledge and depth of compassion, as well as the ability to forge connections between seemingly unrelated subjects (which tends to illuminate exactly what you were trying to unearth in essence but perhaps didn’t have the cultural or historical vocabulary for) has changed my life. Many times over. Has made my world bigger. Many, many times over. I owe my life at the Villa (and thus, this podcast) to his curiosity and insatiable desire to share.
In 2012, Matt loaned me a series of books to read. (Sometimes I think of it as my Human Sexuality Book Club of One. My independent study.) Then he made himself available for all sorts of conversations surrounding those books. Each one vastly expanded my perceptions of what is true and possible.
First came Arousal: the secret logic of sexual fantasies. Then Sex at Dawn. Then Esther Perel’s mating in captivity.
My book club of one was not the most out-of-the-box creative approach Matthew has ever offered me in my life (that probably had something to do with “sacred rage”), but I didn’t know about those books before then, who knows if and when I would have found my way to them if it wasn’t for Matthew.
They form the beginnings of how I started to live into what feels like my purpose.
As a person who knows a bit about a few things, I had never personally known anyone who knows so much about so many things. Perhaps you are seeking a creative approach to something you’ve been thinking about. If so, get yourself over to stillmansays.com
The reason you should have a creative approach session with Matt, more than anything— more than the knowledge, more than the widsom — is his cavernous capacity for empathy. It is from a landscape, a terrain of empathy that he will draw on all the reading and all the study and all the discourse that lives within him. Without his empathy, this wouldn’t strike the chord that translates through you into action. But with his empathy, the springing forward, the impetus, the desire to shift, becomes the real gift of this work.
One corner of Matthew’s library. The presence of his books calms me.
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In the first part of my episode with Matthew, titled “my heart is broken may it never heal: horizontal with a man separated from his wife,” we talked about villagemindedness, our elders, Orphan Wisdom School, Matt’s first great love, his wife, and proceeding as if you are needed.
In this second half of my episode with Matthew, we discuss strange angels, meaning-seeking souls, ancestor work, creative approaches, holding space, monogamy, and the Cretan resistance.
Come, dear one. Come lie down with us.
Links to Things:
Patron of the horizontal arts!
Stillmansays.com, the place for many things Matthew Stillman
“You should be willing to do a 5-minute favor for anyone.” [Lila’s note: Discernment also necessary.]
Strange Angels, the dating site (no longer in existence, sadly!) in which your friends and loved ones were the people allowed to write your profile and contact others on your behalf.
Creativity & Personal Mastery, the course Matthew was taking, the final exercise of which brought his propensity for creatively framing problems without trying to solve them, clearly to his attention.
The End of Poverty? Matthew’s beautiful film.
The Improv Encyclopedia entry for Long-Form Improvisation. Matthew studied improv comedy for years. [Bonus: Here is the most astonishing improv troupe I’ve ever seen: The Improvised Shakespeare Company. (Matthew took me to see them the first time, of course.)]
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to iTunes, this website, or my Patreon!):
iTunes link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/horizontal-with-lila/id1238031115&ls=1
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[5:37] On the 5-minute favor.
[7:13]
Matthew: A friend of mine owned for a short time a dating site called Strange Angels. And … the concept of it was that you couldn’t— weren’t allowed to write your own dating profile, (Lila laughs lightly) other people had to. And other— and you couldn’t contact anyone; only other people could contact people who they thought you should be in contact with, could make connections, so it was always had this inter—
Lila: That’s wonderful.
Matthew: —mediary. (Lila laughs) Where someone else was making the case for you, so it was like, if you weren’t getting any dates, it was your friend’s fault. (Lila laughs) But it also allowed people to be in relationships on the site, because you didn’t have to be single, yourself. You just had to advocate for people.
Lila: Mmm. I love that.
Matthew: It was great.
Lila: It’s so easy to sell your friends. (laughs)
Matthew: It’s so easy to sell your friends! They’ll speak about you in a way that you never would or could.
[8:40] What does Matthew think about Lila’s minimal memories before the age of 12?
[9:06]
Lila: I’ve made the choice — continually, because I think about it regularly — not to go digging around, not to— try and extract, you know, like pull out those memories, like … like Harry Potter. (chuckles) Because it seems … like if I don’t remember … there’s a deeper wisdom in my body that has me not mem— remembering.
Matthew: (quietly) Fair enough.
Lila: If I decided otherwise … what would you suggest I do?
Matthew: In terms of extracting memories?
Lila: Yeah.
Matthew: Well… Do you know the Sufi story about tie your camel?
Lila: I don’t think so.
Matthew: Two Sufis were hanging out in the desert, speaking to each other about the glories of … the Kaaba, and Allah… and as the sun sets, and the moon rises, one Sufi says to the other, says, “Brother, we should go and retire to the caravan and to bed.” And the other Sufi says, “Yes! We should… Let’s tie our camels first. Before we go.” And the first Sufi says, “Brother! Do you not trust in Allah, that he will give us all that we actually need and that the camels will be here if we need them and they won’t be if we don’t?” And the other Sufi says, “Brother. I tie my camels first, and then trust in Allah.” (Lila chuckles) Which is all to say: That — and it’s not a wrong approach — that, you’re essentially taking the, the grace approach.
Lila: Yes. (chuckles)
Matthew: “Well, you know, I mean, if I need them, they’ll show up!”
Lila: Or, if I can handle them—
Matthew: If I can handle them they’ll show up. Lila: —they’ll show up. (chuckles)
Matthew: Which is completely reasonable and not wrong. And another approach, could be: I don’t need to dig out every single one … but … I h— how about I proceed, trusting in grace, and also do a little bit of work on my end… of tying your camel.
[13:06] Matthew suggests ancestor work.
Matthew: You could also go another direction … and find out the stories of your grandparents, or your great-grandparents, and doing some deep— ancestor work. And come at it from the— the far end.
Lila: (small sigh) … Find out the stories …
Matthew: ‘Cause those are inevitably playing through your family as well. And into you.
Matthew doing his thing in Union Square.
[13:33] How did Matthew come to sit in Union Square with a table and two folding chairs, a sign that read:
CREATIVE APPROACHES TO WHAT YOU’VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT
… and a jar with a sign that read, Pay What You Like or Take What You Need?
[17:43] Lila gives Matthew her favorite compliment of him.
[18:35]
Matthew: I’ve studied long-form improvisational comedy for a long time, so I’ve always felt comfortable putting myself in improvisational spaces, not knowing what people were going to say to me …
Lila: Huh.
Matthew: And be able to respond in kind and to keep it going… so that’s how I felt sort of comfortable to go out there in the first place. And, being a good listener … and not trying to s— if you’re not trying to solve things, it’s super easy! (Matthew wheezes, Lila laughs) You just listen and ask good questions.
Lila: But you do more than that. You really do. You’re not trying to— push or influence people in any way, but you do offer suggestions and sometimes, miraculously useful suggestions.
Matthew: Yes, that does happen. But it’s not inevitable and sometimes that’s not even required.
Lila: Do you think it only happens because you’re not trying to— make it happen?
Matthew: I think that certainly … helps, to be sure. More likely to— appear. But often, that’s not even what’s required. Sometimes it just needs to be held a little bit differently.
[19:39] What is Matthew’s definition of holding space?
holding space (verb) = listening with attention, with only the intention to be present. With no other agenda, and being secure and firm in that.
[Read my definition in the glossary.]
[20:49] Does Matthew feel comfortable with monogamy?
Matthew: I was in a monogamous relationship for 13 years. And one of the fractures in our marriage is that we didn’t have … a natural sexual connection … with each other. And so … in that space … we both were … starving. ‘Cause neither of— of us were in any way un-sexual; we just didn’t have a natural chemistry with each other. And perhaps weren’t skilled enough to… find the next way together. So … in my one, experience with being in a relationship of consequence—
relationship of consequence (noun) = a romantic relationship that is not casual, that matters, one that you are feeding and being fed by, and still sitting in the presence of the mystery of as well, but not trying to dodge what the relationship is trying to offer you, what you’re trying to offer it, and what it is trying to offer the world. [Matthew Stillman’s definition]
—monogamy was the only option that was really available for the marriage, but it was also a— an impediment… I’m in a relationship now, which is very tender and … worthy, and of— also of consequence … it’s also long-distance, although, not for long … ‘cause she’s moving to New York. But it’s— monogamous in its structure. Because of the long distance, we sort of honor that space. But— we have a, a more natural sexual connection with each other, so, I think, other, spaces might be inhabited differently, but I don’t know what they’ll be.
Listen and find out.
[22:13] Matt tells Lila a story about: the Cretan resistance, a human skull, a myth-telling festival, and his parents.
http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/6500845
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