This is Bryony Cole.
28. future of sex: horizontal with a sex tech podcaster
Heyyy, Welcome back to season two of horizontal, the podcast that makes private conversations public, or, to paraphrase my listener ghostheart, the podcast that “takes you into my bed and lets your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.” We record while the opposite of vertical, wearing robes.
Bryony: I think, the one thing that I remember, that was seared into my— memory, is: Don’t have sex until you’re married. And this came from a line of Catholic, uh, women in my family, and even though my mum, you know, she married her high school sweetheart and then she got divorced and married my dad, and like had obviously had sex growing up, like, with her first husband. I remember her telling me she didn’t have sex ‘til she married my Dad!
Lila: What?!
Bryony: She’ll deny it.
Lila: And she had a husband before—
Bryony: She’ll flat-out deny it. (Lila giggles) But this is what I remember. And so I carried around a whole thing with me about, not having sex ‘til I was married. And when I, fell in love for the first time, at 16, with a Columbian guy, we even went to the church, to get married, (Lila gasps) because I was so caught up in this idea, that— and this is part of the reason that we didn’t have proper sex, because, we needed to get married first, and of course, we went to this church— can you imagine?
*
Bryony: My earliest memory is: up in my bedroom, I’m— masturbating, and—
Lila: Under the covers? Over the covers.
Bryony: Under the covers and my mum walks in— (Lila gasps) and I remember being mortified … and she just acts like nothing’s happening. And I’m like, “Oh my God, uhhh, just having— a nap—“ or however I sounded at like, I don’t know, 8 years old, (high-pitched voice) “just having a nap!” (Lila laughs) Um, annd, she goes back downstairs, and m— that, maybe because that was such an embarrassing moment, it just like seared through this whole memory of like, first discovering the pleasure aspect of it.
Lila: Right, so that first memory is intertwined with embarrassment.
Bryony: TOOOTALLY.
Lila: Laced with embarrassment.
Bryony: My gosh.
Lila: But how did you know to be embarrassed, that it’s something to be embarrassed about?
Bryony: Exactly. How did I?
Lila: Indoctrinated with shame so early.
Bryony: Yeah.
Lila: And I’m, I’m wondering how. Did we pick it up at school— are there times maybe when— when— when we didn’t know there was anything wrong and we touched ourselves at school and then we got, we got a slap on the wrist, or, or, were told that it was bad?
*
Lila: So, I somehow, met some people — maybe while I was working ‘cause that happened a few times — and, wound up, at this palatial, apartment in Tribeca, which was two floors and the top floor had a greenhouse, and it was— it was incredible.
Bryony: Wow. Lila: And apparent—
Lila: Apparently, it was passing hands between Gus Van Sant—
Bryony: Oh my gosh.
Lila: — and Ben Affleck, and it was before Ben Affleck had moved in, and there were, screeners for Gus Van Sant, you know, the Academy voters get movies, and, I was so — I was already kind of seduced by the apartment, seduced by the place, but there was this young guy, young actor — not a successful one in terms of in the business, but had friends, and, and this, I guess was one of his friends. And you remember, he told me this story about going to visit Joaquin Phoenix, apparently he lived in the same building, and apparently, it was like, he only had one burrito in his fridge or something and he saw the guy— ‘cause this guy was really kind of a starving artist, eyeing the burrito, and he was like, “Hey man, you hungry?” (laughs) And the guy said, “Aw, I can’t take your last burrito,” and he said, “It’s fine, please! Eat!” (chuckles) So— so I can’t believe I was charmed by this, but I was totally— just—
Bryony: Yeh. That was it!
Lila: 19. No, 18. And I was totally charmed by it. He was, he was beautiful. He was beautiful, he had these gorgeous blue eyes and this tousled brown hair and he had this beautiful chest. Like a soccer player, I ha— he had a soccer player physique, which is, the kind of body that I really go for and lust over and admire, and … the people who were there kind of coupled off, and I got to, go, to bed with him, right? And they had been, they guys had been, doing cocaine. I’d never been around drugs, really. I’d heard about people doing drugs. I’d been around people smoking pot. But I’d never been around people doing harder drugs. And … he had been, apparently, taking a fair bit of cocaine, and I said, no thank you, and then we were in bed together, and I curled up on his chest, and I was listening to his heartbeat — and remember I’m 18 years old and I’m feeling very romantic, right? And, I said, “Wow, your heart’s beating really fast,” (Lila and Bryony titter) and he said, “You know why,” and I thought it was (cracking up) because of me! (both howl)
Bryony: You are pure.
Lila: Oh my God, I thought it was because of meee!
Bryony: That’s adorable.
Lila: It took me probably years for me to realize: he was coked up out of his mind. (both titter) Ohhh, and—
Bryony: That’s so wonderful.
Lila: — and then I wanted to—
Bryony: have sex! Okay… Lila: — sleep with him.
Lila: Yeah! We’re in this amazing place and he was so sexy and I was so attracted to him—
Bryony: And his heart’s beating fast.
Lila: And his heart’s beating fast! Bryony: You know why.
Lila: I know…
Bryony: He’s in love. (both laugh)
Lila: (cracking up) S— s— so terrible! Ahhhh…
Bryony: And he couldn’t.
Lila: And he found out that I was a virgin, and he said, “I can’t. I can’t do that. It wouldn’t be right.” And it wouldn’t, I would’ve been— I would’ve been so sad!
Bryony up close. How gorgeous can one person get?!
Heyyy, Welcome back to season two of horizontal, the podcast that makes private conversations public, or, to paraphrase my listener ghostheart, the podcast that “takes you into my bed and lets your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.” We record while the opposite of vertical, wearing robes. It’s a thing, the robes. It makes a difference!
In this episode, I lie down with Bryony Cole. Bryony is the host of one of my hands-down favorite podcasts, Future of Sex, which explores the intersection of the “evolving worlds of sex and tech.”
Her work grapples with questions like: how will VR affect relationships? Does sex with a humanoid robot constitute cheating?
Bryony also moderates live panels with some of the most fascinating innovators and radicals in sexuality and technology. She organizes and hosts sex tech hackathons across the globe, seeding innovation in the field. She’s also, I must say, a stunningly gorgeous Australian beach babe, which would be a little difficult to deal with, if she wasn’t also one of the sunniest, most accommodating humans on the planet. Her soft Australian accent makes my brain tingle … and, not for nothin’, she has a pair of the most glorious breasts I have ever had the privilege to witness…
We got horizontal in Williamsburg, in Bryony’s bed. It was summertime, and though I asked Bryony turn off her air conditioner, there was nothing to be done about … other people’s air conditioners. At one point, the condensation from an air conditioner above her air conditioner began to drip drip drip … Ah, the sounds of summer in Brooklyn, ladies and gentleman.
In the first half of our episode, we talk about catholic school skirts, the time I slapped a girl, being spared sex, and going to the chapel.
If I were you, I’d come lie down with us.
If you enjoy lying down with us, become a patron of the horizontal arts! Patreon is a website that crowdsources income for artists. It can make it possible for me to continue making independent, uncensored, ad-free, homemade radio. For $10 a month you’ll receive a quarterly lullaby recorded be me. For $20 a month you’ll get two tickets to a live horizontal recording! Lots of other perks on patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
Links to Things:
Patron of the horizontal arts!
For all things Bryony, navigate to FutureofSex.org
Bryony’s podcast Future of Sex on iTunes
Why does the orgasm gap still exist?
The podcast editor that Bryony and I share! Chad Michael Snavely.
“Sex Magic: How to Cast Spells With Your Orgasms,” an article by marvelous sex writer and friend of the Villa, Sophie Saint Thomas
Kristen Korvette’s witchy sex book, Witches, Sluts, Feminists: Conjuring the Sex-Positive
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to iTunes, this website, or my Patreon!):
iTunes link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/horizontal-with-lila/id1238031115&ls=1
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
horizontal with Bryony Cole in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, just before recording this episode.
[3:46] Lila has a hard-on for Bryony’s accent
[3:58] Inside Australia, Bryony thinks they would just call her a “bogan.” What is that?
[4:52]
Bryony: I always say, if you’re a foreigner and you come to— at least New York, you get 10 percent hotter, immediately, if you have an accent.
[5:19] What do Australians learn about sex in school?
[5:56]
Bryony: I went to an all-girls school, private school, we had to wear ties (Lila ooooh’s) and uniforms— I once got a detention for eating an ice cream in the street in my uniform.
Lila: NOOooo! Because it was so suggestive?
Bryony: I don’t even know. Yeah, why would you give—
Lila: — well you were —
Bryony: —a young girl a detention for eating an ice cream in a uniform? You weren’t allowed to be seen eating outside the school in your uniform.
Lila: No. Really?
Bryony: Yeah. I hope they changed it—
Lila: It was about eating?
Bryony: Mmhm, eating outside — the school — in your uniform.
Lila: ‘Cause where I immediately went to was — just like I got in trouble for wearing spaghetti straps on my tank tops (Bryony mmhm’s) in high school (Bryony mmhm’s) and I had to — I was in Florida, for high school. It was sometimes 104 degrees, and we would, be wearing spaghetti strap tank tops because it is so hot! And we would have to cover up with a cardigan when we went outside—
Bryony: Yeah, it’s so ridiculous.
Lila: — to go from class to class, in order to not get a detention. And so, that— that’s where I immediately went, that, that, that it’s not okay for a girl to be LICKING anything (Bryony chuckles) while wearing her—
Bryony: “You will not eat a banana,” (both laugh) “outside the school grounds!”
[7:13] What is Australia’s general attitude about sex?
Bryony: It was a pretty conservative school, and I think, on the whole, Australia’s pretty conservative, in their attitudes towards sex. I feel like, part of it is definitely the British influence, where “you don’t talk about these things.”
[8:30] On dating in Australia.
Bryony: Well. Dating in Australia was basically like— okay first of all, going out to meet the guy that you were gonna date — and this was pre-Tinder era, so we’re going back ten years ago — you would go out to the pub, you would have a few beers, you would be over one side of the bar, and like, the guys — most of the guys — would be over the other. You’d be talking with your girls, and you have couple of drinks, a couple more drinks, maybe make eyes with some one guy, he’s really cute, and at the end of the night, the guy would come up to you, be like, “You’re hot, wanna fuck? (Lila cough-laughs) And that was it.
Lila: That’s it?
Bryony: And that was the game. That was the date. That was it! There was no “date.”
Lila: You didn’t go out together you just— Bryony: You would go home, you would—
Lila: — go home with them?
Bryony: Go home, they were usually part of the same friendship group or somehow you knew them, maybe, slept them, you know a few times and then suddenly, you guys were boyfriend and girlfriend, and there was no concept of “dating.” “Dating” was a thing I saw in the movies, where guys and girls went out for milkshakes in American diners.
Lila: Ohohoho, right!
Painted Bryony, by Amber Rae
Bryony: But I remember being so elated when I arrived in New York — and this was like, one of my New York moments, right? I was walking out of the subway and I remember this guy was street talking, whatever, like, “Hey baby, wanna go on a date,” and me, it was like, first time in New York, like that show, what’s that show with Kimmy or someone in New Y—
Lila: Yesss, The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt!
Bryony: I turned around and I was like, (squeals) “A date?!” (Lila laughs) “Yes! How wonderful!” And now I’m like, “Shut up, no date for you.” But, I was so excited that dating existed here, I think, which was the opposite to so many people which were, that were so … beaten up by New York dating culture—
Lila: Jaded. Bryony: For me—
Bryony: I was just like, Oh, this is the best.
[10:43] On rolling up her Catholic schoolgirl skirts.
[11:35] Lila tells a story about the time she slapped a girl.
Lila: I only got one detention in my— as I can, really, recollect— ever. (giggles) And it was because— so, when I was in high school, I loved the Renaissance Faire, and anybody who hears that who’s American, will laugh because it’s so, considered so dorky. I loved it. I loved it! Do you know what it is?
Bryony: No, tell me.
Lila: So, it’s this, festival where they set up a sort of Renaissance village, right, and you’ve got the, the—
Bryony: Oh my gosh. Lila: the—
Lila: — Yes, the place where they sell the turkey legs and—
Bryony: Oh my gosh.
Lila: — you’ve got the, and you’ve got the flower— you know, you’ve got somebody braiding hair and you’ve got the flower wreaths and you’ve got the— the different roles of the King and the Queen and the court and the peasants and (Lila chuckles) your first year, when you’re an apprentice, which would be a non-paid performer, right, when you’re an apprentice you have to play a peasant.
Bryony: Oh my gosh! (both laugh) There’s a class system to the Renaissance Faire, here!
Lila: (giggling) It’s so ridiculous. Uh, but I had so much fun. And, that year, I was … fifteen, and I just was totally enamored with this guy, who I think — was thirty.
Bryony: Wooow.
Lila: Yeah. Yeah. And— either that, or he was in his late 20s. And I was totally enamored with him, he was a professional actor, (Bryony mm’s) he worked at Disney— (Lila giggles) and he was—
Bryony: The ultimate.
Lila: Right, of course. I was in Florida. (giggles)
Bryony: Yeah!
Lila: And, I really— Bryony: What did you do?
Lila: I would, I mean I would, he was— he played the, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and it was this sort of foppish thing, who was totally— totally inappropriate. Totally sexually inappropriate, this Archbishop. Rii— so it would be like—
Bryony: Oh!
Lila: (mispronouncing Latin) “Et domine padre et spire et spiritu spandu. Ohhh, you look so goood.” (both laugh) It’s like, I was so… he played this kind of ridiculously—
Bryony: Sexy, or sexual.
Lila: Sexual-lized character, yeah. And— I was just enamored of him… And, we would go for walks together, and, and talk and he gave me a cd of like beautiful piano music, which I listened to for years after that, and, we talked about the fact that we were attracted to one another. And, towards the end, there was a kind of cast party, and I went— I was so excited, to have the opportunity, right, to not be on duty, to not be performing and to be able to be— with— him and it was also very fun for me because I was— I was at this performing arts high school, and I wasn’t really in the group. (Bryony hmm’s) And so this was a group of people who were older than me, I felt more comfortable anyway (Bryony mm’s) with people who were much older than me. (Bryony mmhm’s) And they, took me under their wing and they treated me like their kid sister in general, and (hushed tone) I kissed him at this party … and … I was over the moon, and then this girl that I was ostensibly friends with, I found out, (angry whisper) ALSO KISSED HIM.
Bryony: No…
Lila: And I was— livid, I can only recall one other time that I have been that livid and— (cough-laughs)
Bryony: What did you do?
Lila: Mm. Well I came to school the next day—
Bryony: Hang on, she was at school with you too?
Lila: She was at school with me. Yeah. And she was … one, I think maybe one year younger. And, she was coming out of our acting teacher’s classroom, and I slapped her across the face.
Bryony: (huge gasp) Amazing!
Lila: And I have never done that before or since—
Bryony: Oh, WOW. Fury.
Lila: I was so, so livid— she knew how much I, I, just dreamed of— this— man. What’s terrible is that I was really mad at her; I don’t remember being as mad at him, right?
Bryony: Why do we always get mad at the—
Lila: And that’s a terrible double standard.
Bryony: Yeah.
Lila But I was, you know, fifteen years old and—
Bryony: Oh wow.
Lila: — indoctrinated in our— our culture and I— and I got detention. I was sent to detention— I don’t know if somebody s—
Bryony: Did people see you?
Lila: — saw it, or maybe they heard it, but, I was sent to detention. That was the only time.
[15:48] What happened after Lila slapped the girl?
[16:27] What does slapping across the face mean to Lila, in kink terms?
[17:09]
Lila: I’m not into humiliation, like he, he liked that. (Bryony mm’s) Name-calling and humiliation was part of his kinkiness, and I don’t like it; it’s not for me.
[17:22] Why didn’t the Renaissance Faire guy take advantage of Lila’s affection?
[17:26]
Lila: I only kissed that, that guy when I was 15, he didn’t take… he didn’t take advantage of me, actually, and he could have, he very well could have. I would have slept with him gladly. And he said to me, “I could step into this with you, and, at some point, I think you would regret it and you would blame me … for losing … these years of your life in which you could be exploring. And I can’t do that to you.”
[18:21] Lila on being “spared” by men.
spare (verb) = when one person, feeling certain that sexual or romantic involvement would certainly hurt an object of their desire / affection, decides not to engage in that way with that person, as in, “He spared me.” [Lila]
[19:02] The time Bryony was spared by a man.
[19:14]
Bryony: When I was 18, I backpacked around the world, and, for a lot of the time, I was by myself, and I, worked in this hostel, in— Rome, and I had 24-hour shifts, where I wasn’t allowed to leave the (Lila oh my god’s) hostel— it was illegal hostel, on the, on this, floor in— floor of an apartment building in the Vatican City, so highly illegal, we used to have the cops come—
Lila: Oh wow.
Bryony: — and check up our spots and stuff, and it was just basically a big floor with different rooms, and bunk beds in the— and, anyway, it was me and this other young girl, and we were 18 running this hostel, and we used to do all these silly things like dress up in cat costumes all day ‘cause we were going crazy, we couldn’t leave, (Lila laughs) you know and have like, these parties but—
Lila: (laughing) Oh that’s wonderful!
Bryony: I remember being spared and this really hot, sexy, like American guy, who came in, who was maybe ten years older, and, you know, you’re backpacking there, ehhh— sleeping their way around Europe for the summer.
Lila: (softly) Sure.
Bryony: And, you know, I really hadn’t, properly slept with someone before—
Lila: Yeah.
Bryony: And I was like, “This is it! This is my moment!”
Lila: Yeah!
Bryony: “I’m ready!” Of course, that’s c— looking back, that probably freaked him out, but he was just like, (sharp intake of breath) “No. Can’t do this with you. I’m sorry.” And, you know, we were like, working up to the moment he’s like “I’m sorr—” As soon as he realized that I— you know, hadn’t had sex before, he was like, “Aw no, this isn’t for me. I don’t want to carry this around with me.” … I wonder how many people have been spared.
[21:06] The time Lila was spared, in Gus Van Sant’s former apartment.
[25:12] Has Bryony ever spared someone? Has Lila?
[25:38] Was there ever a time when someone wanted to cheat with Lila, or when someone was in a super-emotional fragile state, and she said no?
[27:21]
Bryony: And there’s people— women, that have described vivid memories and, vivid memories to me when I, have asked this question, about, “I was, sitting and watching cartoons (Lila giggles) and suddenly— (Lila giggles again) Was that on your podcast, started rubbing up against the cou— ?
Lila: Yes! That was Zhana!
Bryony: I remember that!
[28:20] What is the earliest memory that Bryony has of being caught?
[29:30] Bryony’s memory of being on holidays in Fiji and being aroused by the sex scenes in War of the Roses. Was it this one? Or this one? Or another War of the Roses entirely?
[30:58] What does Lila hear from her friends who are sex-positive parents, on teaching their children about self-pleasure?
[31:31] Lila on the war on masturbation.
Lila: Ohhh my Goddd, the, the war against masturbation that has been going on for so long is so. Ridiculous to me. (Bryony mmhm’s) Because, if you don’t want people to have sex, FOR GOODNESS SAKE, are you not gonna let them—
Bryony: Let them have a mess!
Lila: — pleasure themselves?
[31:50] What did Bryony learn in sex therapy school about babies?
[34:25] On masturbation as sex magick. See the work of the sex writers Sophie Saint Thomas, and Kristen Korvette, author of Witches, Sluts, Feminists: Conjuring the Sex-Positive and Editrix of Slutist.com.
sex magick, or, sex magic (noun) = the process of using the potent energy created by sexuality (often, masturbation) in order to influence the outcomes of things.
[35:04]
Lila: As far as I know, it is, it is ritualizing the experience of pleasure — lighting candles, setting an intention, stoking the energy of your sexuality — with the belief that that energy is so powerful, that when you deliberately stoke it, people will feel it, that it will draw the things that you want to you, and not just a partner, but a book contract, or, that, that’s an article that I read— I think it was by Kristen Korvette. [Correction: It was an article by Sophie Saint Thomas about Kristen Korvette, titled “Sex Magic: How to Cast Spells With Your Orgasms.”] […] She used it to bring, I think, a favorable book contract to her.
Bryony: Fascinating.
Lila: And part of it is the self-pleasure, right, to, to raise the energy (Bryony mm’s) to make it more, more powerful and more potent and more intense, and certainly sexual energy is incredibly powerful.
[36:15] Lila tells a story about a man who emanated sexual energy so intensely that she almost wished he could tone it down. She didn’t even know him. You want to know who it is, don’t you? All right, all right. It’s Nahko. You see? You see what I mean?
[39:37] How did Bryony get to travel the world at 18?
[43:37] Bryony’s mother claimed that she was a virgin when she married her second husband!
[44:38] What happened when 16 year-old Bryony went to the church with her Columbian boy?
[46:03]
Lila: But these, these Catholic— doctrines, right, the Catholic kids wind up doing quote unquote everything but.
Bryony: Yeh.
Lila: To the point where even anal penetration, anal sex, they will do that, because it’s not taking their virginity, because it’s not, quote unquote real sex. […] And that’s the thing, right, considering oral sex not real sex (Bryony mmm’s significantly) means that, if they’re not thinking of it as real sex then it’s not risky, and also that leads to— pretty terrible ramifications later on (Bryony mm’s) where, where, maybe if penetrative sex doesn’t feel good to someone, then they feel deficient in some way or broken because why can’t they enjoy “real sex” which an experience that— that I had. (Bryony mm’s) Or, think about the fact that herpes can be passed from genitals to mouth or, mouth to genitals, they’re not doing their research because this is not “real sex.” I think that also leads to the orgasm gap, right? I want so much to broaden our definition of what sex is.
Bryony: Exactly. What is sex, anyway?
orgasm gap (noun) = the unfortunate phenomenon by which female-identifying humans have on average, orgasms only about half as many times as their male-identifying partners during hookups, and about 80% of the time in the context of romantic relationships.
28. future of sex: horizontal with a sex tech podcaster
Heyyy, Welcome back to season two of horizontal, the podcast that makes private conversations public, or, to paraphrase my listener ghostheart, the podcast that “takes you into my bed and lets your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.” We record while the opposite of vertical, wearing robes.
Become a patron of the horizontal arts, by supporting me on Patreon, a website for crowdsourcing patronage! Patronage allows artists like me to make independent, uncensored, ad-free work, schedule recording tours, and devote my time to creating more horizontal goodness, for you! Becoming my patron has delicious benefits, ranging from quarterly lullabies to bonus episodes to tickets to live recordings to handwritten postcards! You can become a patron for $2 a month on up, and the rewards just get more sumptuous.
