Hello, Kelsey.
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Kelsey: Woundmates are those connections where our emotional wounds find each other, and we find each other compatible. And at first it can be this very erotic connection, of like Ooo, this person knows me on a level that I’ve never been known before… and it’s because your wound is noticing a compatible mate in the other person, because your wounds are compatible. The way that they push on each other, creates more infection to that wound than it does healing. So, a heartmate is someone where, you might have that same wounded material surface, but the way that they show up does not agitate the original wound. [Re: woundmates] And, these are quite subtle connections. They often start from a place of feeling really hypnotically bound, to each other… where, there’s something about them that you just can’t get out of your head and like, almost that insatiable desire to be around them, […] and the connection usually happens really fast. And it escalates really quickly. And whenever that kind of trauma bonding is happening, there’s a good chance that our wounds are mating with each other, and, my areas of vulnerability have recognized that your areas of wounding and tenderness and vulnerability, are the exact thing that will drive my wound deeper. And so it’ll confirm this story that I have about myself. It’s not gonna provide disconfirming evidence. And so that’s usually how those relationships will unfold, is at first we’re like, Whoa! I’ve met someone who’s like, so different, and gets me and all this stuff, it’s gonna be the best! And then, once we’re out of that initial honeymoon phase, we start to see that the way that they interact with the world, or the way that they interact with their emotional world, triggers these deep wounds within us, and not in a way where they’re being brought to the light to be held with so much respect and be met with a new experience that disconfirms the old story, but instead, the way that the wound gets brought up is that it will actually pour salt in the wound, and drive it deeper into the shadow.
Hello my patron.
This is part 4 (though possibly not the last installment of) my arc with Kelsey Grant: Love Educator, boundaries expert, writer, singer, witchy woman, & creatrix… known on Instagram as @radicalselflove.
In part one, episode 116. planet friendship we talked about Kelsey’s female friend pod and 6-month vetting process, mother-wounds, getting kicked out of the house, emotional release, resisting the codependent parental undertow, & how Kelsey and her best friend heal by re-parenting each other.
In part two, episode 117. an emotionally safe connection, we discussed my best friend Marghe, inner circle friendship, virtual and in-person connection, the ability to hold simultaneous conflicting emotions, Harry Potter and nerding out, & the masterful, loving way Kelsey expressed her boundaries to me.
In part three, episode 118. probably the slowest sex i’ve ever had, we explored cervical, orgasms, devotional presence, fantasizing about women during sex, self-reverence, & Kelsey’s sexual evolution, from getting kicked out of the house the day she lost her virginity to her Huntress phase to exploration with a virgin to going off the pill to kink to cervical orgasms & betrayal, to self-exploration & crystal dildos.
In this, part four, we delve into:
- sex that disturbs the neighbors
- woundmates and heartmates
- the runner & the chaser
- dating with intention
- the fantasy of her former relationship
- overfunctioning & underfunctioning
- losing sexual desire
- & whether woundmate relationships can ever become healthy.
Come lie down with us again, in Canggu, Bali, Indonesia, and Vancouver, BC, Canada.
Links to Useful Things:
Kelsey’s @radicalselflove Instagram account
Self-Love Service, Self Study Class, Heal Your Heartbreak course links
Show Notes:
(if you quote from this resource, link to the post or the horizontal Patreon, por favor!)
[2:45] On cervical orgasms, and pacing
[3:57] Lila on the longing to explore with a lover
Lila: I would looove to explore that with someone! I still have yet to have that lover, that you had in college, where there’s love and trust, and you can explore all the things you want to explore? I’m still seeking that person. I feel sad to have not had that, and I really want it. But it’s not just gonna be with any lover. It’s not! It has to be right— there has to be that— I think the reason why I was able to have g-spot orgasms at all, was because I was really in love with the man, and I’d known him— we hadn’t spent a lot of time together over the years, but I had known him for nearly 20 years. So, there was something very very familiar about my desire for him, and care and love, and his body even. And his smell, you know? He smelled so good to me, too. […] Yeah, it’s not just gonna be mechanical with me, I don’t think.
[5:11] Why Lila got close to a g-spot orgasm with the sexologist, but didn’t climax
[6:08] Kelsey on trying to be quiet during sex, and sex that disturbs the neighbors
Kelsey: The muting of the expression, and how that influences the experience. Like sometimes, it’s so hot to be like Oo we gotta be quiet, and then other times I’m like, Fuck! I just wanna like, howl and like, make all these wild woman sounds, and I feel censored. And as soon as I feel censored, that’s when there’s a big shut down that happens. That happened with my most recent ex. In my apartment, the walls are pretty thin—
Lila: Yeah, you told me!
Kelsey: Yeah, and like, being like in the throes of it, and then like having our neighbor just bang on the wall and be like, “Shut the fuck up!” And then like, this immediate like shame, oh, like, we are, we’re doing something wrong… and it was my expression like, and like that wild energy that was really starting to come through and like just… totally present. I wasn’t in my head; I was in my body, I was in the experience, and then, that banging on the wall took me out of my body and into my head, and, I did not have an orgasm that night, that is for sure. And not because of my partner. Like it was… me in my head, censoring my pleasure, to make sure this stranger feels more comfortable.
[8:15] What is a woundmate?
[11:09] Kelsey’s biggest woundmate relationship to date, and the ways their wounds inflamed one another
[13:48] Tracking her woundmate relationship from its origins
[14:52] What were their abandonment and betrayal wound-hooks?
[16:28]
Kelsey: That deep wound of being abandoned, and, Well I will abandon this person before they could ever abandon me, is really what it could be also boiled down to. Both of those are very compatible, of like, I’ll save you with my love and You could never save me with your love. They perfectly mesh in terms of a dysfunctional dynamic. Sometimes that’s known as the runner-chaser. Or like, the savior and the victim. There’s, there’s so much in there. That are themes that come through a lot of relational dynamics, when we have these unhealed parts of ourselves that are really like in our blind spot.
[17:17] How would we identify a woundmate relationship in order to avoid it?
Lila: A lot of this is in the blind spot, so how would, how would we identify a woundmate in order to avoid that relationship? I think, what you’re saying about it being hypnotic makes a lot of sense. I think when people enter into a relationship like that it feels predestined or inevitable, it feels like a vortex…
Kelsey: Yep. You know, as shitty as it is, like sometimes we have to walk through the fire. We have to get burned by that fire. To really know what that experience is like in our own personal system. I personally hope that a lot of people can learn through my example and my mistakes, and be able to sense and like, just create more presence in their own body. Presence to those motives and those motivations that come up when we first meet someone. Like are they rooted in truth? So is there a part of what’s coming up for you that has to remain in the shadow? You can’t let anyone else know? That that’s what’s going on inside of your head? Or is it something that you can be really open about? And for me, with him, that whole idea of like Oo, if everyone wants him I’m gonna get him….. I wouldn’t have said that out loud! I kept that to myself! For a very long time. Until I was ready to really start unpacking my healing around that relationship. I had to come into right relationship with me and my reality first. Me and the truth of what had been going on inside of me when I first met him. And, as it unfolded like, there were all of these red flags that happened early. That I was like, Red flags what? I don’t see them. I think that they’re maybe orange or yellow, like I would justify them away. And I would diminish my own intuitive hits. Be like, Anh, no, that’s not what it is, like, You’re just being jealous or You’re just being insecure, so I was— I would minimize my own internal compass.
Lila: Yeah. Somebody explained this beautifully as: you squint at those things.
Kelsey: Yes. Totally.
Lila: And then you open your eyes and you look at all their wonderful qualities.
Kelsey: Exactly! So like, if that element of squinting or, denial of certain realities is happening, chances are, you could be about to cross the bridge into Woundmateville.
[20:04] How we can use our awareness in the early phase of dating to determine whether a connection can be a heartmate relationship. Does it disconfirm the old wound-story?
Kelsey: If we pay attention— this is why so much of my work has been around the vetting phase of dating, so dating is this deliberate period of time where we are really paying attention to how we feel in this person’s presence. What do they bring out of us? What do they invite us into? What are we inviting out of them and them into? And like, how are our energies actually colliding with each other? Which means we have to, in some way, disentangle from that fantasy bond, that wants to get like swept away, or like saved, or like my one true love galloping in and saving me saving me from the pain of being human. When we recognize that all relationships are going to be painful, regardless of how aligned they are. In the most aligned relationship, you’re still gonna have pain, you’re still gonna have to meet those raw edges— it’s just, in an aligned, heartmate relationship, when that old wounded material comes up, because their wound is not compatible with yours, they’re able to hold a different space. They’re able to show up in a way that disconfirms that old story that you’re not enough. Or you’re not worthy of being chosen. Or that everyone you love betrays you— whatever the story is. They show up in a way that gives you a new story, to write. Which is so beautiful. That takes time, to suss that out with someone. But if we’re like hightailing it — and this really only applies if we’re looking for like a long-term partnership — and so if we’re hightailing it in the dating phase where we’re getting swept up in that fantasy, we’re not really seeing reality, so we’re doing the squinty thing.
I solemnly swear to Dream Big, Kelsey Grant.
[22:25] Kelsey on gaslighting, and how it can make us disregard our intuition. On paying attention to how someone reacts when we share that we’ve felt hurt.
[27:29] Some of Kelsey’s lovers have had better communication skills than people she went on dates with
[28:43] The most popular question: Can woundmates become heartmates? What could make it possible for woundmates to become heartmates?
[36:20] How Jamie, at the beginning of their relationship, provided healing in the form of disconfirming evidence of her wound story
[37:45] The alchemy of their relationship uncovered another layer of her codependent pattern
[38:27] How long did it take for these patterns to surface in their relationship?
[39:21] Kelsey is now doing self-examination around overfunctioning, receptivity, and pleasure
[41:38] How the hypnotic sexual energy in a woundmate relationship can fade away once bonding occurs
[45:00] On making it to the bonding phase
[49:00] On the inevitability of relational pain
Lila: You always get hurt, no matter what, when you’re relating, you always get hurt somehow.
Kelsey: It’s impossible to avoid getting hurt. Even in the most aligned relationship, you’re still gonna hurt each other. Because, let’s say like for argument’s sake, it’s a lifelong relationship. At some point, that relationship’s gonna end, either by death or by choice. And that is going to be painful. And, inside of that container, there will be moments where, the way that you relate to each other, is just not of your best self! We might say things or do things that hurt or harm our partner, and, a lot can be repaired, especially if you have two people who are committed to doing their proper relational work. But to expect to not be hurt, or to not experience pain, in relationship, is relating from that fantasy idea of our inner child. I want someone to save me from the pain of being human.
Lila: Yeahhh, and so many people say, as a reason not to step into something with someone, not to explore, not to go deeper, not to really get involved— they’re afraid, if they really get down to it, they’re afraid of being hurt, but of course you’re gonna get hurt, and you’re gonna get hurt whether or not you are in relationships. Whether or not you’re even relating to other humans, you’re gonna be hurt, because loneliness is painful too! Human-ing hurts! So I don’t understand; I really have a hard time wrapping my mind around how that could be the worst thing for so many people. I’m worried I’m gonna get my heart broken.
Kelsey: It is a bit of a block to intimacy, to have that pop up. To say I don’t wanna get hurt and I’m not gonna invest into this relationship. To me like, when that happens, that’s always a sign like, Okay, we’ve gone as far as we can go! We don’t have enough alignment here because, I can’t progress with someone who is coming at relationships from that place because, most likely, they have not met themselves in those deep, rich, tender places yet. Which is why we can be so afraid of having that excavated in a relationship. Because a relationship will reveal everything that we have kept hidden. You can’t hide in a relationship. And so, all of that material comes forward and, I think on some subconscious level, we all know that. We all know that we will be fully seen, inside of a relationship. And that can be so vulnerable to sit with.
[52:46] How does Kelsey want sex to be woven in to the fabric of her future?
TO LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE:
Your patronage helps keep horizontal independent and uncensored, as well as unlocking access to all the part twos, the secret patrons Facebook group, & Intimacy Tips videos (like last month’s “Dissatisfaction & the 4 Choices”).
