This is Kai Mata. She displays a rainbow at every gig and will do so until the entire LGBTQ+ community is liberated.
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Lila: So right now, as I understand from your post, there is a bill?
Kai: Yes.
Lila: That is attempting to be pushed through government, that would require anyone, I guess outed by anybody else as LGBTQ+ to go to conversion therapy?
Kai: Yes. This bill, called what translates to in English as the Family Resilience Bill—
Lila: Oo, ew.
Kai: Yes. Of course. Any time we mention family it’s usually against any sort of family. It defines LGBTQ+ people as sexual deviants.
Lila: (sarcastically) Yeah, let’s keep them from making families to protect families. […] No sense-making.
Kai: Yes. It also labels us as sexual deviants along the lines of people that participate in incestuous relationships and non-consensual relationships.
Lila: Whoa!
Kai: This law, this bill, also targets, a lot of woman’s rights, basically saying that a woman’s duties are in the household to clean. (Lila sighs heavily) It is a bill that is a grave stomping on human rights. And the rights of marginalized groups in Indonesia. And though we know it’s not gonna pass because it’s impossible to implement, what it does is it’s normalizing hate speech, and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments. It is normalizing the demonization and the villainization of LGBTQ+ people. And it’s shoving more and more queer people deeper into the closet for fear of speaking out. Indonesia has such a strong culture of shame. And the idea of familial shame, so, I can’t come out because of my family’s repercussions it’ll have. And that’s what keeps people so deeply embedded in the closet and from saying anything.
Lila: Caged.
Kai: It’s caged! The only Indonesians that are out towards their friends are only out not in their own cities. They move somewhere else to be out, and back home they’re still in the closet. Which is why you can see gay and queer Indonesians here in Bali, but most of them are not Balinese. The ones that are Balinese, either leave the country or go to a different city.
Lila: Feels like… maybe how it was 80 years ago in the States or something?
Kai: Even just 20 years ago in the States, 30 years ago in the States.
Lila: Moving someplace else to be out, moving to a big city… not being able to tell your family. But this, this, familial or ancestral shame… I don’t think there’s as much of that in the States.
Kai: Not as much anymore.
Lila: Maybe in more religious communities.
Hello my patrons.
This is the second part of my conversation with Kai Mata, Indonesia’s rainbow-toting, openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter: thoughtful rock star, articulate activist, love advocate, outspoken woman with a bamboo guitar and meter-long hair living a love life of liberation in a country that expects her to be neither outspoken nor liberated.
In episode 109. love who you love, we talked about the persecution of Chinese Indonesians, Kai’s California childhood, falling in love for the first time (and with a girl), coming outed on that fateful spring break in Bali, PDA in Indonesia, cultural sensitivity & admitting our privilege, modesty, menstruation, temples, & tampons, the illegality of sex toys, and the fact that our current sexual partners don’t define our sexual orientation.
In this part, we discuss:
- Kai’s ideal relationship
- the Bali cacao ceremony
- age discrepancies & the sexiness of power
- the dream marriage tour
- Indonesia’s proposed “family resilience bill” which would label all LGBTQ+ people as sexual deviants and require their family members to turn them in to be tortured by the government in conversion therapy
- how existing laws are currently used to target Indonesian queers
- Kai’s escape plan
- turning her adversity into an advantage
- & a story about the self-proclaimed greatest dancer in the world
Kai kindly allowed me to include two of her original songs in these episodes. You heard one of them, “So Hard,” in episode 109, and here is the other.
It’s called “Within You Is a Light.” It’s my favorite song of hers. I first saw her play it at a show in Ubud on International Women’s Day, and I couldn’t stop smiling. Because she’s truly a rock star. A beacon of rainbow light.
Kai is composing anthems for the global queer revolution, and I couldn’t stop smiling imagining all of the people in the LGBTQ+ community whom she has already uplifted, and all those who will still get to discover her music in the years to come. It makes me want to hold a lighter in the air and sway with everyone in the world who stands for love.
Come lie down with us again in Ubud, Bali, Indonesia.
Links to Things:
Kai’s Instagram
Kai’s Twitter
Kai’s Facebook
Kai’s new song Where Love Goes
Beautiful profile of Kai’s activism in the South China Morning Post
Why We Pick Difficult Partners, the School of Life video Lila references as “how we code the love we received as a child, regardless of how we experienced it, as love”
Show Notes:
(if you share excerpts, please link to this page or the horizontal Patreon!)
[2:32] On sexual fluidity.
[3:35] Will Kai only have partners in the LGBTQ+ community?
Kai: Why that is a rule that I have now is because of what I’m looking for in a partner, and that’s someone who has compassion, for… and the empathy to see from the eyes I see. And I hope that I could also have the empathy to see from their eyes as well. I wouldn’t say I’m gonna make a blanket statement; if there’s a lovely man who is super open about these ideas and understands them, on a personal level— then potentially, yeah, maybe. But, who do I want to keep in my life? That will help me represent myself in my truth and who can I help represent them in their truth… as well? And typically, a big part of my identity, especially now is the fact that I am in the queer community. And that is something I think a lot of straight people don’t recognize the importance of.
Lila: Of being in the queer community?
Kai: Yes, and why I’m so vocal about it. I—
Lila: They— they don’t understand?
Kai: No, I’m told “Just get on with it. What you do in your own bedroom is your thing.” […] The whole thing is that it’s not about what happens in the bedroom. That’s,
Lila: Right!
Kai: It’s about love! Beyond that it’s about, I guess—
Lila: And equal rights for partnerships.
Kai: Exactly.
[5:16] What does Kai’s dream partnership look like?
Kai: I want someone who… can bring the awareness of what they want to achieve— within themselves, and within the world. I think a lot of— us— don’t want to look at who we are. And don’t take the time to grow into who we want to become. I think that, the ability to look with compassion, as a lens we see the world through, is something super important. Because we all have stories, that shape our perspectives. And, I think empathy is the biggest way to create bridges, and to recognize the humanity in every person, rather than demonize people for their differences. So, I would love to see that in my partners.
[6:18] What does Lila want in a relationship — not in a relationshopping kind of way?
[10:01] And what did her best friend say about that?
Lila: Freedom within union is what I dream of.
[11:16] Lila’s experience at the Bali cacao ceremony witnessing a man “in the front row” for his partner.
[13:41] What does Kai want in her partner?
[14:20] Power imbalances & age differentials.
Kai: I would say, my relationships in the past have had problems with, I guess, a balance. Maybe power imbalances. And, issues with who is in the limelight more.
Lila: Do you tend to choose people who are quote unquote “more powerful” in that regard? Or the other way around?
Kai: Yeah, the the… yes. Yes the first one.
Lila: (laughs) I understand. Power is very sexy.
Kai: It is!
Lila: I was talking to someone last night at a Secret Supper, and she was tracing some elements of narcissism in men that she’s dated, and I said, “Yes! I understand! Narcissists can be very sexy!” They’re so confident! They’re so clear! They’re so… all about what they’re about.
Kai: Exactly. That’s very attractive to me. So I’ve typically… most of my relationships have had a… significant age difference.
[15:28] Kai on the age discrepancy and shifting imbalances in her first partnership.
[16:23] The unequal but balanced agreements one of Lila’s lovers had with his partner. How do we navigate the intersectional power differentials in relationships?
Lila: For instance, one of the first men who I had any interaction with who was in an open relationship, in an open marriage, was describing to me the, the agreements that they had. And they were that, because his wife was— he said, mostly a lesbian, that’s how he described her. She was free to be with women, and so she could be with him, and, and women, and he, at first, did not have the liberty to be with anybody else. I was like, “But that’s not fair. That doesn’t seem fair.” And he said, “Lila, it doesn’t have to be equal to be balanced.” And I’ve thought a lot about that since. So I wonder— because there is, just like intersectional feminism. There’s, there’s going to be differential between the people in a relationship in different ways, right, so: a person might have more privilege because they have more money; the other person might have more privilege because of their race. And that, and there’s all these different factors that play into power imbalances, and, probably there is— unless you are very very very similar in background and in earnings and, you know? And in looks, like— there’s going to be imbalances. So I wonder about ways that people navigate a power differential in relationships, that acknowledges those things, those differentials, and yet feels… okay, feels balanced. Like, the older person can never get any younger; that age gap is never going to get any smaller. But the younger person will… get older, you know, and will ostensibly grow.
[18:40] When did Lila start dating younger men?
[19:32] The married man who called Lila a bohemian, and her relationship to the word.
[20:05] Lila on the conventional desire she’s a bit embarrassed by.
[22:16] What leads Lila?
Lila: I’m pretty much guided, 98.5 percent of the time, by my attraction. […] I don’t want to live a relationship — or a life — without that part of me blossoming. I spend a lot of time single.
[23:03] Lila on releasing a limiting belief about men.
I used to say it was hard for me to find people that I’m physically attracted to. But that’s not true. And I am just now in the process of acknowledging that that is a belief that is not true, and I can let go of that. It’s not true! There actually are lots of people that I am attracted to and can be attracted to. So… there’s something else going on. You know? There’s other stuff. Attachment style stuff, potentially. Choosing unavailable men is a theme.
[23:37] In what ways are they unavailable? And where does this proclivity come from?
[24:58] The School of Life video about how we code the love we received as a child, regardless of how we experienced it, as love.
[27:36] Singing as healing
[27:51] Kai’s dream wedding tour
Kai: I will get married in every country it’s legal!
[29:30] Kai on the proposed Indonesian Family Resilience Bill. Her Facebook post on this is what leads Lila to seek her out and propose a podcast together.
Lila: So right now, as I understand from your post, there is a bill?
Kai: Yes.
Lila: That is attempting to be pushed through government, that would require anyone, I guess outed by anybody else as LGBTQ+ to go to conversion therapy?
Kai: Yes. This bill, called what translates to in English as the Family Resilience Bill—
Lila: Oo, ew.
Kai: Yes. Of course. Any time we mention family it’s usually against any sort of family. It defines LGBTQ+ people as sexual deviants.
Lila: (sarcastically) Yeah, let’s keep them from making families to protect families. […] No sense-making.
Kai: Yes. It also labels us as sexual deviants along the lines of people that participate in incestuous relationships and non-consensual relationships.
Lila: Whoa!
Kai: This law, this bill, also targets, a lot of woman’s rights, basically saying that a woman’s duties are in the household to clean. (Lila sighs heavily) It is a bill that is a grave stomping on human rights. And the rights of marginalized groups in Indonesia. And though we know it’s not gonna pass because it’s impossible to implement, what it does is it’s normalizing hate speech, and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments. It is normalizing the demonization and the villainization of LGBTQ+ people. And it’s shoving more and more queer people deeper into the closet for fear of speacking out. Indonesia has such a strong culture of shame. And the idea of familial shame, so, I can’t come out because of my family’s repercussions it’ll have. And that’s what keeps people so deeply embedded in the closet and from saying anything.
Lila: Caged.
Kai: It’s caged! The only Indonesians that are out towards their friends are only out not in their own cities. They move somewhere else to be out, and back home they’re still in the closet. Which is why you can see gay and queer Indonesians here in Bali, but most of them are not Balinese. The ones that are Balinese, either leave the country or go to a different city.
Lila: Feels like… maybe how it was 80 years ago in the States or something?
Kai: Even just 20 years ago in the States, 30 years ago in the States.
Lila: Moving someplace else to be out, moving to a big city… not being able to tell your family. But this, this, familial or ancestral shame… I don’t think there’s as much of that in the States.
Kai: Not as much anymore.
Lila: Maybe in more religious communities.
[32:17] How’s Kai’s outness could affect her family.
Kai: Yeah. When I came out — and I’m very publicly out — as you know!
Lila: Yes!
Kai: As you’ve seen. As we’ve become connected by. I… had to recognize the position I put my family in. And it’s an idea of, now they have to take on the responsibility too. They didn’t ask for that.
Lila: Did you talk to them about it?
Kai: No. They know very little about what I do publicly, and I prefer to keep it that way, just like I prefer most people not to know about my family, besides the fact that they’re very loving and accepting. […] But I know that, my mother’s friends kind of know that I’m, not straight, and they will bring it up in like slight passive-aggressive ways. But not directly be like, Yo! Your kid’s flaming gay! Or something like that.
Lila: How do they bring it up?
Kai: Just snide comments about other people in this LGBTQ+ community. Or if they’re out to lunch, and they see like, a very feminine man, they’ll all make comments about him. Things like that. There’s, there’s an aspect of: I’m very out, and also recognizing that there’s kind of a strong Don’t Ask Don’t Tell culture that goes on here. Where it’s so shameful that people don’t even want to bring it up.
Lila: Don’t Ask Don’t Tell can be so harmful.
Kai: It can. It keeps people in the shadows. People have written me and said, “This law’s not gonna pass. Don’t worry.”
Lila: Right, “you’re fine.”
Kai: But it still has— it’s already shown such adverse negative effects, on a community as a whole.
Lila: Yeah, it’s like having a horrible President of the United States — it brings out all these hateful people from the gutters. Basically. Who feel emboldened now that a hateful person is in power. And it’s scary.
Kai: It is.
[34:10] Kai’s escape plan. Has she talked to her parents about it?
[34:49] How Indonesia uses existing prostitution & pornography laws to persecute LGBTQ+ folx
Kai: Indonesia’s an interesting place because very rarely is there like physical harm— or less so than what we, I guess saw in the U.S., during everything like Stonewall Riots.
Lila: Yeah, but being ostracized or excommunicated can be just—
Kai: Exactly.
Lila: — as devastating.
Kai: Either that or being detained. People that run LGBTQ+ Facebook groups have been detained before in Indonesia, under the guise of a 2008 law about electronic communications. And, Indonesia doesn’t have a federal law that criminalizes same-sex relationships… they use existing laws— specifically prostitution and pornography laws as a way to target the group anyway. Or anything that they can think of. So it’s the idea of knowing, even though there’s nothing in the books right now, that says that Indonesia can arrest me for… if they wanted to, they’ll find a way.
[35:47] Lila’s dreams for Kai.
Lila: Someday, I hope, to see you at the center of an Indonesian Pride parade. (pause, sniffles from both) I really hope that.
Kai: I think it’s sad that I can’t imagine that happening.
Lila: I think sometimes I am shortsighted in my ability to imagine better change for the world. Because, I think, a hundred years ago, probably, nobody could imagine same-sex marriages being legalized in the United States.
Kai: Yeah.
Lila: And, fifty years ago, sixty maybe, I bet people couldn’t imagine polyamorous relationships being all over the newspapers and on television. […] So I, I really wanna believe that change, more loving change, is much more possible than my limited ability to conceptualize it actually happening. I think of that quote— you know the one I’m talking about? “The arc of the moral universe is long, and” I’m paraphrasing, “my eye sees but a little ways, but as far as I can see, it bends towards justice.” I hope I’m not misquoting.
Kai: Whoever it is, that is profound.
Note:
This quote is a rephrasing of a passage in a sermon by the abolitionist minister Theodore Parker, popularized by Martin Luther King.
The exact wording of the Parker sermon is: “I do not pretend to understand the moral universe. The arc is a long one. My eye reaches but little ways. I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by experience of sight. I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends toward justice.”
The MLK rephrase is: “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”
[37:32] Lila loves on Kai; Kai ruminates about how her privilege and voice were born of adversity.
Kai: I’m crying right now.
Lila: Me too. (laughs) I also feel like your brethren— they’re lucky to have you. They’re lucky to have you so vocal, so brave, so eloquent. I am sure that there is much more support and celebration for you than even you know, here. You’re uniquely positioned, because of your nationality and then your upbringing, to speak to the world about this.
Kai: Definitely.
Lila: (emotional) So thank goodness for you.
Kai: I mean it’s, it’s a funny thing to think about— when I’ve reflected recently that, the reason my parents are so open and understanding, and the reason why I, I think developed a healthier identity with my sexual orientation and sexuality in general, is the fact that… we… were survivors of political unrest and sent to the U.S. and saved in that regard! So it is a privilege that came from complete adversity, and thus, I want to turn my adversity here, into an advantage. Cause I am an ethnic minority; I’m a sexual minority. I’m also a woman. But I have something that is super important that most Indonesians don’t have and that’s choice. I can choose to stay, and I can choose to leave. And if I choose to leave, I can easily assimilate into the West. Moreso than most Indonesians who gain asylum.
Lila: Yes.
Kai: So in that regard, I’m here planted, because for so many times throughout history, they have tried to kick my people out, whether it’s for our ethnic origin, or now, my sexual orientation. And if I leave, that is giving them what they want. That is telling them they win. (emotional) That I will abide by their ridiculous ideas of what humankind is, and what compassion is meant to look like. And what justice is. So I stay… and it’s scary to stay.
Lila: (almost a whisper) Yeah! … But it’s like your life has poised you to be a voice, for those who cannot use theirs, at this moment.
Kai: Yeah.
Lila: (laughing and crying) That’s amazing! And I can imagine what a burden. (whispers) But it’s also amazing.
[40:21] Kai tells a story about the self-proclaimed Greatest Dancer in the World
Kai: My ex-girlfriend — and we ended on pretty bad terms — we’ll call her K. Because, I don’t wanna say her name. K had shown me a different side of her when I came. We went from being super in love, and her being so warm towards me, to a complete 180. And that was especially seen, when she asked me to leave, on Christmas Eve.
Lila: Whoa!
Kai: Yes. She had told me she didn’t love me, and she didn’t care about me, and she didn’t want me there.
Lila: How did this happen?
Kai: I guess, people change their minds, and, she didn’t know, what she wanted, and didn’t know how to say what she wanted once she figured it out, until it was too late! So thankfully, her twin sister, took me in— shoutout to you, Lucy! Love you!
Lila: Yeah Lucy!
Kai: Lucy took me in. And I was a guest of her, when I still went to all their family gatherings!
Lila: Ohh!
Kai: I still went to family Christmas, and I saw K there, but I was a guest of her twin sister…..
[46:35] Kai tells a story about her first role model couple.
[48:53] Lila’s love of Unitarian Universalists, the agnostics of the religious world, and her first glimpse of a queer family in the form of St. Pete UU’s phenomenal former minister, Dee Graham.
[55:15] Kai tells a story about her love of LGBTQ+ tourism, and NYC rainbows.
Kai: I walk around as a symbol of a rainbow, because most people, they won’t recognize it, but to those who notice, it means the world to them. […] So I got to participate in New York City’s World Pride in 2019. […] And I remember, arriving into this big city that I had never been to before, and seeing rainbows emblazoned everywhere. On ATM machines, on the streets, in food, everywhere. And I was overwhelmed with all the rainbows around me, as a 21 year-old. I just remember, I couldn’t leave the hotel room without crying every time I saw a rainbow, and having to take the time, to take a photo of it. I was, with people who had lived in New York, and everyone was sick of me doing it, because I would basically have an emotional breakdown of celebration and rejoice, but, I remember, crying at every single moment, every day because I saw a little, a rainbow sticker on a bakery, or, something etched into a bench, to remember a beautiful gay icon or hero. And I also recall being in the Pride March. I was on a float. In the front. My face was painted in rainbow, kinda ended up everywhere! And, I was there— in the par— the march lasted around four hours, but I was standing and dancing the entire time. And I would scan the audience and see, Asian people specifically, point me out, as if I was like a beacon!
Lila: Yes!
Kai: And it was so rare for me to see Asian support and celebration. And it was all like— like there were old women with plastic visors, that you wouldn’t expect to, to be at a Pride March!
Lila: Yes!
Kai: And, families. And everything like that. And, I felt, I felt, so… celebrated. And that, my voice wasn’t the only one. I think that has charged me with a sense of needing to create community and making sure that people don’t feel alone.
To listen to this episode:
Your patronage keeps horizontal independent and uncensored, as well as unlocking access to all the part twos, the secret patrons Facebook group, & Intimacy Tips videos (like last month’s Inner Mentor visualization).
If you have an LGBTQ+ friend living in an intolerant place, or among people who provide little support for their true identity, would you share this episode with them? They are not alone. People like Kai are fighting for their right to love who they love.
And to find out about all things horizontal, including upcoming workshops, my How to Connect course, and Intimacy Advice sessions, sign up for my email missives on horizontalwithlila.com.
