109. love who you love: horizontal with indonesia’s openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter [1 of 2]

This is Kai Mata.

109. love who you love: horizontal with indonesia’s openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter [1 of 2]

Hello horizontal lovers. horizontal is consensual eavesdropping on conversations about intimacy of all kinds, recorded while lying down, wearing robes. In this and the following episode, I lie down with Kai Mata, Indonesia’s rainbow-toting, openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter.

Kai: I fell in love with my best friend. And it was a very confusing time. I didn’t know how to approach it; I didn’t know what it was that I was feeling. All I knew was it felt so intense… like it was — her well-being was something that was on my mind and, I guess, I was so confused because it was my first time feeling like I loved someone, and not having a baseline to gauge that on. I, from a very— from the beginning of time I think, I, have been a lot more open about my sexuality, and kind of had a firm belief that I will love whoever I love, regardless of their gender. […] But then to feel it, become tangible. With a person that I cared about. Who was my best friend. Who I spent so much time with. That brought on a different level of, not only having to come to terms with this part of my sexual identity, but also… realizing that it’s not gonna ever be reciprocated from that person. It was a double whammy.

Lila: Ooooooooooh. And it’s such a— it’s such a high level of risk, right, to express that, to a friend. Did you make a declaration, or did you keep it… did you keep it private?

Kai: Ummm. I was in love with her for a while, and, one of our good friends knew— just by knowing; I never said. She told me she knew, and she said she accepted me and loved me, and it was very sweet. My biggest regret is that I never told my friend myself. It came out through another person’s words. And, to have my coming out… happen, when I don’t think I actually was ready. At that time. Or… had the emotional resilience to deal with it in a way that would be fruitful, and beneficial, and respectful to both me and everyone else… is something that pains me.

Hello horizontal lovers.

horizontal is consensual eavesdropping on conversations about intimacy of all kinds, recorded while lying down, wearing robes.

In this and the following episode, I lie down with Kai Mata, Indonesia’s rainbow-toting, openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter.

She is a thoughtful rock star, an articulate activist, a love advocate, an outspoken woman with a bamboo guitar living a love life of liberation in a country that expects its women to be neither outspoken nor liberated. I love her. And her meter-long hair.

Kai wears maroon and black almost exclusively, right down to her motorbike helmet. She displays or wears a rainbow flag at every single show, at every single gig, and she will continue to do so until all of her people are free to love who they love.

She battles internet trolls, social media harassment, hate messages, homophobia, discrimination, and erasure by her culture of origin on a daily basis. She is publicly out in a country that persecutes its LGBTQ+ citizens. She is out for all of her fellow Indonesians who cannot be yet, in the hopes of a new era in which they all can feel safe to be.

By the way, she’s 22 years-old.

I first encountered Kai through a Facebook post she made, raising awareness of the persecution of anybody with a queer identity in Indonesia, and the government’s attempt to slip their discrimination into law.

These are Kai’s words, posted on February 21st, 2020:

I need your help.

Indonesia is trying to label all LGBTQ+ people as deviants dangerous to society, legally requiring us to go to conversion therapy.

I am one of the only publicly LGBTQ+ Indonesian Women🏳‍🌈🇮🇩. Why are there so few of us?

Because my beautiful country has created a society and laws that ostracize and discriminate against my beautiful rainbow community🥺.

This flaming heart breaks with the new “Family Resilience Bill” draft in Indonesia. I am truly in tears.

This new bill would define any LGBTQ+ Member as a sexual deviant. It would require mandatory reporting to the government of anyone suspected to be LGBTQ+.

Those who are reported would then be forced into conversion therapy to be “treated.”

This draft is supported by four major political parties in Indonesia, who claim gays interfere with the future of humanity. It pains me knowing they choose not to realize the humanity within those of us who might love someone of the same gender.

And so I sit in Indonesia, my homeland, with the thought of fleeing ringing in my mind, fearful for my livelihood and scared as to how Indonesia can be developing so quickly with its economy and middle class, yet degenerating with basic human rights.

What booms even louder than my fear: the recognition of the choice I have to stay, the advantage of an international support, and the privilege of a voice.

These laws, regardless if passed, are meant to silence us. And it’s worked at keeping 99% of the LGBTQ+ Indonesians in the closet, frightened by not just legal implications, but the social suicide of coming out and being viewed as the shame of the family. Had I been born in a different situation, I’d be in the closet too.

And thus, I am rooted in my country with a clear message.

I am Indonesian🇮🇩. I am LGBTQ+🏳‍🌈.

And I am proud of both. They can threaten me and tell me I deserve to die. They can put me in conversion therapy or put me in jail. Nothing will change the fact I am Indonesian and I am flaming gay.

If you’re reading all the way down here, thank you for listening. I encourage you to please share this message to your friends, family, and anyone you know, especially those traveling to Indonesia. This isn’t a solo project. We need a choir of voices singing this message.

Update: please help by sharing (spreads the message for we need the world to recognize what’s going on), commenting (it shows support to all the Indonesians like myself who are feeling scared and isolated) and signing this petition: http://chng.it/nGVCh79W2J

That’s the conclusion of Kai’s post from February 2020. This quote “Family Resilience” Bill would require families to turn in their non-heterosexual members for conversion therapy.

Let me say that one more time.

It would require you to turn in your trans sister, your gay brother, your lesbian aunt, your bisexual daughter, your pansexual cousin — to be tortured by the government, in the name of families.

In this, the first part of our conversation, we talk about:

the persecution of Chinese Indonesians
Kai’s California childhood
falling in love for the first time (and with a girl)
coming out before she was ready
songwriting as emotional awareness
high school in Jakarta
a fateful spring break in Bali
PDA in Indonesia
tourists & nudity in Bali
cultural sensitivity & admitting our privilege
modesty, menstruation, temples, & tampons
the illegality of sex toys
& the fact that our current sexual partners don’t define our sexual orientation.

Each horizontal recording is between 3 and 5 hours long, and divided in two to four parts. My recording with Kai was around 3 hours long, so this episode, 109, the first part of our recording, is available in all the podcast places, and next week’s episode, 110, the second part, will be available exclusively to patrons of the horizontal arts.

Patronage makes it possible for me to share these intimate conversations with the world. Patreon is like the Love Child of crowd-funding and a subscription service.

Become a Patron!

Become a patron of the horizontal arts! Your patronage keeps horizontal independent and uncensored, as well as unlocking access to all the part twos, the secret patrons Facebook group, & Intimacy Tips videos (like last month’s Inner Mentor visualization).

Here are some of my commitments during this American Revolution, during Pride month, and beyond:

I commit to further amplifying the voices of people with marginalized identities — Black people, People of Color, people in the LGBTQ+ community, and more folx, whose voices are squelched, censored, under-represented, or unheard, in the United States and across the planet.

I commit to loving them fiercely and uplifting them in all the ways that I can.

I commit to showing this love personally, by caring for the beloveds I cherish.

I commit to showing this love at large, through anti-racist action that calls for justice in myriad ways, including, but not limited to—

- - donating to anti-racist organizations
  - donating directly to folx in need— such as through The Black Fairy Godmother Official’s Instagram —
  - using horizontal to express anti-racist and pro-Pride statements
  - listening to and broadcasting the stories of Black people, Indigenous people, People of Color, and LGBTQ+ folx in all mediums
  - listening to, reading, watching, and financially supporting work created by and starring marginalized folx
  - participating in education on anti-racism, led by BIPOC, and LGBTQ+ folx
  - continuing to unveil and excavate my own racism throughout my life.

If you have an LGBTQ+ friend living in an intolerant place, or among people who provide little support for their true identity, would you share this episode with them? They are not alone. People like Kai are fighting for their right to love who they love.

Kai, swimming in rainbows at NYC’s Pride Parade.

In next week’s episode, the second part of my conversation with Kai Mata, we discuss Kai’s ideal relationship, the Bali cacao ceremony, age discrepancies & the sexiness of power, the dream marriage tour, Indonesia’s proposed “family resilience bill,” how existing laws are currently used to target Indonesian queers, Kai’s intolerance escape plan, turning her adversity into an advantage, & a story about the self-proclaimed greatest dancer in the world.

To listen to next week’s episode, become a patron of the horizontal arts by visiting patreon.com/horizontalwithlila

And to find out about all things horizontal, including upcoming workshops, my How to Connect course, and Intimacy Advice sessions, sign up for my email missives on horizontalwithlila.com.

Until next time: may you have someones to love, something to do, and something to look forward to. I’m looking forward to leading a workshop on 20 Emotional Release Techniques at the Virtual Intimacy Retreat July 10th – 12th! (When you get your ticket through that link, it supports me directly!)

Now, my horizontal lover, come lie down with us in Ubud, Bali, Indonesia.

Links to Things:

Kai’s Instagram

Kai’s Twitter

Kai’s Facebook

Kai’s new song Where Love Goes

Beautiful profile of Kai’s activism in the South China Morning Post

Show Notes:

(if you share excerpts, please link to this page or the horizontal Patreon!)

[11:27] Kai’s middle school sex education in California (Catholic, chastity-based)

[12:30] Kai’s high school sex ed in Indonesia

[13:12] Why Kai’s family emigrated to the States

Kai: I was born during a very […] politically unstable climate in Indonesia. So, my parents and I lived in the U.S. — it was the 1998 riots, in which our ethnic group was targeted, and tens of thousands of people were raped and murdered. […] Indonesia scapegoated Chinese citizens as saying we were the cause of a financial crisis. So, I lived in the U.S.

[14:32] Kai on the 6 recognized religions in Indonesia (Judaism is not one of them.)

[16:09] Kai’s liberal parents

Lila: So you said your parents didn’t bring up anything, but did you come to them, asking?

Kai: Sometimes we’d have talks about it, and it was always open minded, and they always just said, “Be safe. Whatever you do, just be safe about it.” Which, is something that I realize is so liberal in the eyes of most Indonesian parents, of what they would say. So I’m grateful. In that aspect, I’m very grateful.

Lila: Yeah. Did they tell you how to be safe?

Kai: Never really specifically.

[17:43] Kai’s first love, in high school

Lila: Ooooooooooh. And it’s such a— it’s such a high level of risk, right, to express that, to a friend. Did you make a declaration, or did you keep it… did you keep it private?

Lila: Yeah. So you were outed.

Kai: A little bit. But I don’t blame the person who did; I love her, and she was honestly trying to do the best thing for all of us, and I just wish I had felt empowered at that moment […] to be the one to say the words “I love you. And it’s okay that you, might not love me.”

Lila: In that way.

[21:04] Songwriting as emotional awareness

Kai: Throughout my life I have used songwriting as a medium to express myself. I think a lot of us have a disconnect between the emotions we feel, and how we portray ourselves in the world. […] So, I would learn a lot about how I felt, when I would write songs. And that’s when I felt like I could tackle, and pinpoint the feelings, what they physically manifested themselves as, and how it affected my thought process. And it was also a way for me to share with others how I felt, in a way that felt like they could understand, and not just understand but also experience. I feel songwriting is such a strong modality to cultivate compassion.

[21:54]

Kai: I remember, my best friend, who I was in love with… at a party, and this very attractive boy in our grade made moves on her, and they kissed, and they did more, and I remember that sinking feeling in my stomach of… I’m happy she’s doing what she wants, but I’m feeling like there is something personally affecting me about it. And I had to explore that. I had to explore that with quite a great depth of… What does that mean about me? And Why is it affecting me so much? And she continued to have flings with this boy, and that was okay, and I kept it to myself. And I was there for her during the times she needed to get the morning-after pill. And other things. But each time we did those activities, I was torn. Between feeling a little bit broken about the situation, but also… I don’t know, maybe happy that she was happy.

Lila: Yeah… In polyamorous relationships, they call it compersion — feeling joy for somebody else’s joy, when it’s not derived from your direct relationship with them. […] And I can imagine how mixed that would be, right, some of that— some of the, like, sinking, some of the pain, some of the rejection, right?

Kai: Definitely.

Lila: All mixed up.

[23:45] Kai tells the story of being unintentionally outed on spring break

[27:35]

Kai: In that moment, she said everything was okay. She gave me a hug, and that… it was okay, and that she cared about me. Things changed when we woke up the next morning.

[30:36]

Kai: But then again, we were 17. At that time and space, I guess a lot of us are only focused on ourselves, which is, it’s the time to focus on ourselves. So it’s hard to see from someone else’s eyes I think.

Lila: Well we’re just becoming, right? Just becoming humans, really. Still.

[31:00] Kai’s typical American life & identifying as an American for a long time

[31:50] Lila and her American-Brazilian-ness

[35:20] Kai on her parents

[36:01]

Kai: There was a time in which my father moved back to Indonesia before we did. He moved to Indonesia two years prior to us. So for two years my mother lived, as kind of a single mom. Yet, they still maintained contact and everything. And, I think that is pretty clear […]. It’s to be there for the children. The reason why we stayed in the U.S. was because my parents wanted to make sure I could finish middle school in the U.S. ‘Cause I really didn’t want to move back to Indonesia at that time. So they, I guess sacrificed their own personal relationship with each other, to allow me that opportunity.

Lila: Or, or put it on hold? Kind of deferred it?

[37:54] Kai on affection & PDA, in her family and in Indonesia

Lila: Did you see them being affectionate?

Kai: Yes, actually. Um, which is very rare for, most Asian cultures. They would hold hands and kiss. Which is lovely. And both of my parents are very affectionate towards my brother and me. Hugging. And, you know, saying “I love you.”

Lila: Mmm, that’s so good. I read in the Lonely Planet guide, before I came here that physical affection in public is frowned upon here, in general.

Kai: Yes. Very much.

Lila: So no, no hand-holding.

Kai: Interestingly enough, between like two women that are friends, that’s okay.

Lila: And men?

Kai: Less so. But anything of like, opposite gender couplings? No. That’s, that’s very frowned upon.

Lila: Parents and children?

Kai: Less so. N— I don’t think most Indonesians are raised hugging their family… and hearing “I love you” from their families.

Lila: That’s so interesting. I have a notion that people, as in people in a culture, who feel warm, like Brazilians, have a tendency to be really physically affectionate, amongst their families. And here, the people that I have met who were raised here, feel warm… yet, not affectionate. Why do you think that is?

Kai: Yeah, that’s a very tough thing to discuss. When we were speaking about Bali— I have to preface this by saying that Indonesia is 17,000 islands. Plus or minus a few hundred depending on the tide.

Lila: Wow!

Kai: There are so many different cultures. So many different languages— there are hundreds of languages spoken. Let alone all the dialects that we have. Yet somehow we fall under one nation. So it’s very hard for me to even try to think—

Lila: To generalize.

Kai: Yeah, about a blanket statement that could cover all of this. From my experience in Asian culture as a whole, is that very rarely is affection considered appropriate. There’s also a, maybe a culture of tough love. […] Also the idea of humility. That we are supposed to… leave affection for the bedroom, which, connotes all affection as something sexual. When it’s not. But that might be where a lot of the cultural differences, and I guess, where we see […] a disparity in Indonesian culture is that… There is a sense of warmness because everyone is considered family in Indonesia. When you are saying Sir or Madam, we call them Father or Mother. When you address other people around your age group, I call them like, Older Brother, or Younger Sister. That is just commonly— it’s ingrained into our language. The way we speak. The semantics we use, which really influence a culture in that regard. So I think that’s where the warmness comes. Rather than physical affection.

Lila: Familial. Do you think the — what makes physical affection inappropriate here, is that, that is private? Considered private, considered sexual, and anything sexual is to be behind closed doors?

Kai: I think so. Yeah.

[41:55] Is it rude to be physically affectionate with your partner as a tourist in Indonesia?

[42:26] What happens when Kai kisses a woman in public in Indonesia?

Kai: I am an Indonesian and I am publicly affectionate with my friends and my partner in Indonesia.

Lila: Do you get flack for it?

Kai: No. No! Every time I have kissed a woman in public in Indonesia, we are always asked if we’re sisters. (laughs lightly) Or if we’re cousins. […] They don’t comprehend that it is a romantic attraction. Or a romantic relationship.

Lila: Even when you’re kissing on the lips.

Kai: Yes! […] And then I’m like, “This is my girlfriend,” and they’ll be like, “Oh! Really good friends! Okay, got it.” So it’s this huge sense of denial.

Lila: WOW. […] I mean that’s the euphemism used in gay culture for a long long long time, you know, “This is— This is Uncle Bob, and this is Uncle Bob’s friend. Luke.” Ohh, wowww. So they just w— you’ll tell them directly, and they’ll just divert it.

Kai: When I feel safe to do so, yeah exactly. And I think it’s just the strong cognitive dissonance that happens when, this isn’t something that they recognize. So they have to make sense of it, in whatever form they can. Which is a friendship.

Lila: Or a family member.

Kai: Yes!

Lila: But I’m assuming that they’re not doing a lot of making out with family members.

Kai: Exactly, and like, my partner is not of the same ethnic origin as I am, so it’s, well. Would be a lot less likely they’d be related to me.

Lila: There’s not a lot of interracial marriages and such?

Kai: There are! There are. There are, actually, quite a few interracial marriages in Indonesia. Typically what we expect is: Indonesian woman marries white older man. That is the stereotype.

[44:24] A Kuta Cowboys tangent, on flipping the sex work script. I want to interview a Kuta Cowboy on the show.

Lila: Do you know anything about the Kuta Cowboys?

Kai: Not personally!

Lila: (laughing) I’d love to make an episode with one of them. […] I also read in the Lonely Planet guide about these escorts, young male escorts who work the beaches in Kuta, and are paid in dinners and accommodations and gifts and are hired for their company, it said mainly by Japanese and Australian tourists. And I thought that was really fascinating and really powerful because of how it subverts that narrative of the young Asian woman with an older white man. To have a young Asian man with older women. And just subverting the gender narrative also, you know we always think and, there’s so many depictions in our media, of men using escorts, of men hiring sex workers.

[45:30] The episode of Slutever in which Karley Sciortino scours the city to find someone to give her a happy ending massage

[46:04] Why Lila is so fascinated by the notion of the Kuta Cowboys

Lila: I’m sure it has its own — which is why I want to talk to somebody — its own complications, its own issues, its own power issues and culture issues… (with relish) but I do love the subversion. I do love that shift. And, the allowing of women to seek out pleasure and company… and comfort… and to, to pay for it!

[46:44] On the issue of tourists coming to Bali to go nude and feel sexually free

Hi. Ubud, Bali, Indonesia. February 2020

[48:31]

Kai: From my own personal perspective, I don’t think there has to be anything sexual about a nude body. […] Then again I do feel there’s a time and place… to… uncover. When people describe their ability to be free here, they also have to recognize that there’s a financial advantage that they have, and a racial advantage they have.

Lila: Yes.

Kai: So in their freedom, I hope they recognize that there are a lot of people that don’t have that privilege… So, when people say, “Oh, Bali is such a free place! You can do whatever you want; you can be whoever you want!” That may be the case for that person. Who is a foreigner. Who can also choose to leave whenever they want. But for the majority of Indonesians that’s not— truth.

Lila: How can we as foreigners be in action recognizing that privilege? What would that look like, for us to be doing that?

Kai: I think there’s some sense of cultural sensitivity, of, firstly, becoming aware. It’s it’s it’s learning about, the reasons behind the way things work. Regardless if they are antiquated or not. People hold beliefs as to why they justify their thoughts. Whether it’s religion, or morality, or facts. Anything. I think, as a foreigner, it’s our responsibility to understand the place we are in, and then how it affects the people, that are here. And also, admit to the privileges we have. A lot of us don’t want to admit that we are privileged. To admit that there are things that we may have potentially been born with, or grew up with, that give us a leg up in society.

[53:07] On modesty, temples, menstruation, & tampons.

Kai: If I going to a Balinese ceremony, I’m going to dress in the traditional outfit: the kebaya. Because I am wanting to assimilate myself into that culture.

Lila: And when you go to a ceremony, as a woman, you cover your shoulders and your knees — what is the— you said it’s important to know the reason behind that. What is it?

Kai: Modesty.

Lila: Modesty. It’s so difficult for me; I really wrestle with it. If I go to a temple, I will, I will cover.

Kai: Yeah.

Lila: I will do as the people do because I want to be kind and respectful. And also. Cultures that enforce modesty by covering up their women… I, I feel so challenged by the notion that a woman’s body is inherently immodest.

Kai: It’s difficult. It is.

Lila: It feels so wrong to me! And I understand that this is a, a history and a culture. But it’s also a history and a culture of, of, of oppressing women! Telling them that their bodies are flagrant and and and… an elixir to men, that men cannot control themselves! So women have to cover up! And! (frustrated sigh) You know?

Kai: Yeah I feel you on that.

Lila: So I really wrestle internally. Doesn’t mean I’m going to show up at a temple with my knees out. […] Just I… The equation of sexuality with nudity I think causes a lot of ills in this world. And on top of that I don’t think that sexuality is anything to be ashamed of or to be judged or to be […] considered dirty anyway! So even if, even if nudity was sexual all the time — which it is categorically not — I still would not think that that was bad!

[55:16] Why can’t you enter a Hindu temple when you’re menstruating?

Kai: That is common in most religions actually.

Lila: Really?

Kai: Yes. Inclusive of Islam, Hindu, Buddhist. […]

Lila: I did not know that. […] But why? What is unclean about this natural process?

Kai: So, in temples here, like there are signs not only if you’re menstruating, but also if you have like a cut or a wound, you’re not supposed to be going into the temples. Because that’s also unclean.

[56:35]

Kai: Indonesia’s funny with menstruation. You know. Most Indonesian women aren’t allowed to use tampons; that’s why it’s so hard to find tampons anywhere.

Lila: Aren’t allowed.

Kai: No. It’s socially unacceptable to use tampons.

Lila: Because it’s not okay to stick anything inside your vagina?

Kai: Yes.

Lila: Pfff! Brain asplode!

Kai: Exactly.

Lila: So it’s napkins? Like cloth?

Kai: Yes, sanitary. Sanitary pads.

Lila: Would Thinx be acceptable? The period panties?

Kai: Yes. That’s seems very very environmentally friendly for Indonesia at the current state, but yeah, I would assume so. Just nothing inside. Nothing internal.

[57:19] Kai on sex toys in Indonesia.

Lila: Can you get a dildo in this country?

Kai: Not legally.

Lila: Whoa! Wowokay. Wowowow. Okay.

Kai: (matter-of-factly) Sex toys are illegal here.

Lila: Whoa! Okay!

Kai: Yeah. It’s contraband.

[57:40] How people get sex toys in Indonesia

[58:32] Lila wishes that more sex toys were not penis-shaped

[59:16] Lila and Kai on their sexual debuts

[1:05:47] Lila’s utopic vision of entering a sexually healthy society

Lila: I wish that more people had that experience of, of having essentially like a sexual sherpa or a guide. You know, how beautiful would it be— I can’t even see to a society that would have this, but how beautiful would it be to have initiation rites around sexuality? Where you chose somebody who chose to essentially mentor you and brought you in to this experience, and taught you about your body and pleasure, like wooow, how incredible! I feel like we’d have a totally different world. […] If people didn’t have so much indoctrination of shame around it, and were instead invited in to experience their pleasure, in their own bodies. […..] I just feel like we wouldn’t have any war. I just feel like we’d have a really peaceful society. World society. Culture. If we, if we had pleasure positive world.

[1:07:51] What did Kai’s first sexual experiences teach her about sexuality?

Kai: My first sexual experiences typically, I think were my way of being self-destructive. It was my way of harboring my shame and anger, about my sexuality and the fact that I fell in love with a woman. Who I didn’t end up keeping in contact with in a way that was to I guess hurt myself. I wasn’t respectful of me. And what I wanted. And I think I sought… out… I guess, maybe an answer or a justification that I was all right. Through doing things that I didn’t actually feel were right for me. And… the people that I chose at the time.

Lila: Who did you choose?

Kai: Men. (both laugh) Also just people that I didn’t know, didn’t feel a connection with. And I think it was a form of self-harm in that regard.

Lila: Yeah.

Kai: And when I look back at that, and I look back at my 18 year-old self in that— I don’t like defining that as my sexual debut. That was where I was using the guise of sex to destroy myself.

[1:09:19] Did Kai dissociate, or “send her body to have sex”?

[1:10:09]

Kai: I look back at my younger self with such, I guess, I just wanna wrap her in a blanket! Not to say I haven’t had pleasurable sexual experiences with men; I definitely have had a few. Men that I really cherish. But when I had my first experience with a woman, who I was in love with — didn’t know I was in love with until we ended up in the same bed as each other. […] That was just mind-blowing. That was a rush. That felt like an awakening. Like I wanted to just stay so connected physically and emotionally and, it was the only thing on my mind. And that was the first woman I kissed, and that was the woman I was with for — living with for 3 years.

[1:11:03] The story of the first woman Kai kissed

[1:12:13] How did she have the bravery to proceed with that new love?

[1:13:05] Kai on her out-of-body, timeless, profound, unprecedented sexual experience

[1:16:26] On LGBTQ+ identity markers

Lila: So you then entered into a relationship with a woman. And at that time, did you use identity markers like lesbian or bisexual?

Kai: Never. I’ve never actually really stuck with one identity marker. I say that I am LGBTQ+, and on a personal level, when I look for a partner, I look for someone in the LGBTQ+ community, as someone that would be my potential partner.

Lila: Hm, does queer feel good?

Kai: Queer, yeah. I am fine with anyone addressing me as Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, Queer, Trans, whatever. I really don’t care. I resonate with all of them partly, but no one of them fully, is how I describe it.

Lila: Does pansexual have any charge for you?

Kai: That works, sure.

Lila: Yeah, so I, I understand. So it’s like: You are open to this umbrella. You feel that the rainbow umbrella is, is you more than any particular shade of it?

Kai: Oh yeah; all I know is I’m really not straight.

[1:17:33] Does Lila not use the term bisexual because it’s easier for her to pass?

[1:20:38]

Kai: I think a lot of us want to make blanket statements about everything. I fall at fault at that all the time. And it’s really hard to do so. Because, personally I feel like I am more romantically attracted to women than men. I find it easier to emotionally connect with men than women.

Lila: With—

Kai: With men. Than women.

Lila: Emoc— you find it easier to connect emotionally with men than women!

Kai: Yes, yes.

Lila: But you’re more romantically attracted to women.

Kai: Yes! […] But then those are also blanket statements that I’m making. Just based on my history. Your sexuality is just as valid with whatever identity you want to put on it. And, I think that is incredible, that we are having these conversations now. And being able to breach that topic of how we identify and how we define ourselves. And what we enjoy.

Lila: I want to make sure that I’m not disowning something that is true for me. I also would like to make sure that I’m being respectful of people who have had to fight hard to be accepted, and, to be proud, and to walk in parades, you know, and to be out. With an understanding of my privilege, being that I’ve been predominantly with men. And can pass in the world as a straight woman. […] I’m grappling with this.

[1:22;28]

Kai: […] From my perspective, I am always told that I don’t look gay. Which is always fun, I’m like, “How can I prove it?”

Lila: Oh my gosh!

Kai: So I do have that quote unquote “straight-passing privilege;” I am a feminine woman with ridiculously long hair. […] And the reason why I typically only date people in the LGBTQ+ community is because I had an experience where I was dating a lovely man. Super sweet. […] I really liked him. Uh but, he said something, he said, “You’re straight now, because you’re with me.” And that was the interesting thing to hear of, now I have to wash away all this part of my identity of who I’m sexually— who I can be sexually attracted to, or romantically attracted to. Or emotionally connected to. It’s an important thing to mention that the partners we have currently don’t define our sexual orientation.

109. love who you love: horizontal with indonesia’s openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter [1 of 2]

Hello horizontal lovers. horizontal is consensual eavesdropping on conversations about intimacy of all kinds, recorded while lying down, wearing robes. In this and the following episode, I lie down with Kai Mata, Indonesia’s rainbow-toting, openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter.

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109. love who you love: horizontal with indonesia’s openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter [1 of 2]

109. love who you love: horizontal with indonesia’s openly LGBTQ+ singer-songwriter [1 of 2]

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