This is Jillian, giving a presentation at CMX.
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Jillian: So my friendships growing up: I was really lucky. Like e— especially in contrast to my sister, who, she was like quote unquote “popular,” but that meant that, girls were mean to her, and she like literally had, like ongoing battles with girls in our high school. That like, I would see. And, I’m so happy I didn’t absorb that that’s how women treat each other.
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Jillian: One of my biggest fights with Sarah was because I really wanted to ask this boy to a school dance, and she wanted to ask him. And she ended up being like, “Okay fine, you ask him.” But she was hoping that I would, of course, just not ask him, ‘cause it was clearly hurting her. But I really wanted to go to a school dance with a boy, because no boys had ever asked me to a school dance, and it was a Sadie Hawkins, which meant I got to ask the boy! (laughs)
Lila: Yeah!
Jillian: And I was like, “I have to take this opportunity! I need to go to a dance with a boy!” And that— like I remember like, she cried! Because I did that. And—
Lila: Did he say yes?
Jillian: Well this is the hilarious part — or not, was not hilarious to me at the time — was that he said yes, and then a day later came back to me and said that he wanted to go with somebody better.
Lila: Who was not Sarah either.
Jillian: Who was not Sarah either. I think it was Mackenzie Brennan. But like, that was what I got, for like, choosing, like, my own selfish wants over my friend’s, like…
Lila: Feelings?
Jillian: Feelings!
Lila: And was that the lesson you took away from that?
Jillian: I think that was. I didn’t really, learn that lesson at the time, I think. (laughs)
Lila: Do you still now have these— wait, was it you who asked, “Do high school rules still apply?”
Jillian: I don’t think so.
Lila: No, that wasn’t you. Somebody, somebody asked me this, or, or posed this, ah, it was Lira. Lira posed this as a question: Do high school rules still apply? The rules being, that you can’t: go out with, have sex with, be in a relationship with, somebody that your friend has been, or wants to be, or is, in a relationship with?
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Dennis: I was recently giving a talk on the— this moment when I began to compare the mythology of myself to how I actually spent my time. And in this mythology for mysel— of myself, this mythology of myself, and for myself — I’m well-read, and well-traveled, and I have, you know, all these ideas for businesses I wanna start and build, and, I looked back after this decade and realized that was the 23 year-old me, that filled up notebooks. And had been well-traveled for… a teenager. But haven’t left North America, and certainly haven’t traveled almost anywhere in a decade. And I have piles of books that are unread, and I have, three close friends, who I talk to a quarter. And I have a family—
Jillian: (laughs) Once a quarter!
Lila: Wow.
Dennis: I have a family who’s there for me if I need them, but I never ask them, and how I actually spend my time, is going to work, and spending time with, with my ex, and that’s about it. Like, I have spent 10 years, demonstrating to myself, that I’m a very different person than who I think I am.
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Dennis: I first encountered that — putting words and an expression to that feeling of isolation that I had in a loving relationship — when I heard Esther Perel talking about that, I think that she even mentions in her TED Talk, after that period of time when I was 23 and designing this for myself, I entered a relationship that would last almost 11 years. And in that time, I learned what I believed adulting was. Which was: you find your partner, and you move off to the suburbs, and you go to the gym sometimes and you go to work, and then 10 years passed, and I realized that I had seen some of my friends, maybe two or three of them, twice / three times a year. And, I knew a few people’s names at the CrossFit gym, and, my yoga instructor knew my name, so I was a part of that community, right? And. I didn’t feel a part of anything else. And I felt, completely socially isolated. Like I felt— and especially because all of my feelings of closeness and belonging and satisfaction were linked to a relationship— and a very— and a great one! Like, my ex is so loving, and such a wonderful woman and we had so many wonderful years together… and also it wasn’t enough. And also, at times that we were arguing, I had no one. And felt, like I didn’t belong anywhere, then. It was completely different than my experience growing up, with this open house filled with— my neighborhood. And with many adults present in my life, you know, throughout my mom’s friends and… then all throughout high school, I only had circles. So, it would be rare to be hanging out with one person; it was more likely that we were fitting more people than there were seatbelts in every car that we were ever in, to go on adventures, every day after school, and every weekend was just filled with… like my close friend-circles— even like, you know, there would often be someone who had to draw straws for the trunk, because we always had more people in every car, than, than car.
This is Jillian, in a pose after my own heart!
Hello my patron.
This episode resumes my four-episode arc with Jillian, anti-loneliness crusader, creator of The Joy List, author of Unlonely Planet & Dennis, Lifestyle Designer, Event Curator, and co-lead of Personal Development Nerds, her housemate, her chosen family, her brother.
In part one, episode 98. withhelds & unsaids, Jillian and I cleared the air after our cancelled sleepover event, I shared how I feel about Dennis, and we talked about the difference between being drawn to someone and being attracted to them, The Touch Gauntlet, safeporting, and distinguishing between sensual and sexual energy. Then, I made an erotic confession. One that’s still giving me a vulnerability hangover.
In part two, episode 99. indiana jones is my father, we discussed Dennis’s creative family tree, his communal roots, his mother’s indomitable matriarchal strength, his biological father who preferred not to be a father, the crush in kindergarten that lead to a bit of violence with a block, and his grade school infatuation with each of the girls in his class, in turn. We discussed passing the torch, becoming the patrons and matrons and caretakers of our families. Jillian presenced that she was feeling distant, and we grappled with my intentions for making our clearing part of the recording. We discussed having a good public image, the Wounded Healer syndrome, and the brief personal essay Jillian shares at the outset of every Joy List email, which often reveals something she is actively struggling with. And then Jillian shared the story of how she induced her parents to attend a weeklong family therapy retreat. I am in awe of that.
This is Dennis, and?
In this, part three, we delve into:
- Jillian’s household growing up
- that incident with the vibrator when she was 16
- a sexual debut versus “losing your virginity”
- Dennis’s high school work as a peer-to-peer Sex Educator
- his biological brothers
- the topography of our friendship lives
- a fateful Sadie Hawkins dance
- whether high school rules still apply
- whatever happened to my lover Michael
- & how Dennis used to rely entirely on his long-term relationship to get his intimacy needs met
With this installment of horizontal, I surpass 100 episodes (!).
Each month, my patrons inspire me to continue, and every time you reach out to let me know what an episode meant to you, I take it as a reminder that I am doing the right thing. Most of you know that I regularly vacillate between fiery motivation and the lack of desire to do anything at all, which is probably the shadow of my mother’s bipolar disorder on my psyche. The fluctuation has been particularly onerous this winter — or maybe it is every winter, and somehow I forget — but knowing that you are out there, knowing that you care for what I make this deeply… it stirs me.
Next week we’ll round out this 4-episode arc with Dennis & Jillian in episode 102, in which we talk friend breakups, whether anybody owes us anything, guilting, obligation, “it’s as though no time has passed” relationships, emotional aperture, Dennis-questions, may the better man win, & cultivating erotic tension.
horizontal before the recording of this episode. Williamsburg, Brooklyn. October 2019
Until next week, I wish you the fortitude to make it through the Thanksgiving holiday and: someone to love, something purposeful to do, and something to look forward to. I’m looking forward to buying myself a onesie. Yep. That’s really what I’m looking forward to this holiday week. I’ll take joy where I can. And I hope you’ll do the same.
Come lie down with us again in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.
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