Celebrating the 2 year anniversary of horizontal with The Confetti Project in May 2019!
100. the narcissist tried: horizontal with nine (guests, friends, & lovers)
This is THE 100TH EPISODE OF horizontal!!! Naturally, this one is a bit different than the others. In celebration, I am releasing a never-before-heard experimental episode, recorded on May 21st, 2019 – the 2 year anniversary of horizontal. In every other episode, I lie down with one or two people at a time.
Jillian: A few weeks ago, I was feeling just kind of shitty, like I just had some interest in a few different men in my life, and they did not reciprocate the interest, and I was just in this kind of headspace of, ‘Men only wanna be my friend; men are not sexually-attracted to me.’ And I had a friend of mind give me a challenge, and he said, “All right, how about: Every day for a week, when you go into the world, you try and get a man’s phone number?” And I accepted the challenge, ‘cause I love a good challenge and I love […] someone to be accountable to, for a challenge. And, I was expecting that I was going to be asking men for their phone numbers… which is not a thing that I do very often. And what was really shocking about that week was that, just because I was going into the world every day with the energy of I am getting a man’s phone number today, every man I interacted with, I was thinking to myself, Could I get this person’s phone number? Do I want this person’s phone number? Do I wanna ask him for his phone number? And I never had to ask a man for his phone number! Because people kept giving me their phone number! It got to the point where I started kind of like, freaking out a little bit! I had my Uber drivers asking me out to dinner! And I didn’t even think I was consciously doing anything.
Tiana: Get it.
Jillian: And it was ju— (everybody laughs) It was like, I must have just lingered in the car—
Steve: Five stars!
Jillian: For like (everybody cracks up) two seconds longer— (everyone still laughing)
Tiana: (cracking up) FIVE STARS!
Steve: Excellent service.
Jillian: Excellent service. It was just so fascinating.
Owen: Most direct route.
Steve: Late-night hero.
Jillian: I was like, Wow! It really just reminded me that anytime I think like, Uhh, I’m not attractive or People aren’t interested in me… that more likely than not, people are responding to the energy that I’m giving out. And if I’m in that energy within myself of, I’m attractive; I’m interested in seeing other people; I’m interested and available, and curious— I think the biggest thing is that I was curious about other people and every interaction I had, I wasn’t taking it for granted, I was really present in it, because I had to do this unusual thing for myself every day. And then I ended the week with just, a bunch of phone numbers!
***
Lila: My reaction to hearing Jillian tell me that story was: relief.
Jillian: Mm!
Lila: It was, Oh. He does this.
Jillian: Me too!
Lila: So it’s not just me… and it’s probably not just her either.
Owen: No.
Lila: What I found fascinating— fascinatingly painful, was that he played upon our stories, of where we thought we were lacking or what we thought people didn’t want to give us or, how they didn’t want to see us. So, to me he was like, I don’t love you and I don’t think I ever will. And to Jillian, he’s like, I’m not attracted to you. And I don’t think I ever will be.
Owen: Right, so he figured out, for you, it was love that you could never get, and for her it was attraction that she could never get. And so he rejected you in just the right way to hurt you enough to go away and never have him be challenged again… by… you.
Jillian: Wfhooo. This is blowing my brain open. (Lila laughs painfully) This is blowing my brain open.
Owen: And, and, the sad thing is— individuals like this are— I mean, clearly, this is an individual that is causing chaos in the world, for you and probably for other people. And for himself. And, they’re often not able to engage in psychotherapeutic care— they have a dropout rate of 60%, and there aren’t really good models yet that have been proven to help. Which, ironically would help a lot of other people too, because then they’d stop causing all this chaos!
Lila: Mmm.
Owen: And this is probably, you were imagining your own hurt because he did such a good job of hurting you, but that did a REALLY good job of keeping him isolated, and alone, and not at risk, of looking at himself, and seeing the devastation he hath wrought… and feeling the hurt that might allow him to change.
***
Owen: Well there’s a “D” at the end of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which distinguishes people with healthy narcissism from people who have a problem. And New Relationship Energy is normative. That’s a thing you can and should feel. It’s, do you need to create devastation in the lives of people at the end of that week? When you felt so excited, just to be able to get out of it in a way that lets you feel free and clear. That’s problematic. Right, whereas if you can say, like, “Wow there was so much energy, and it’s kind of died down, and I don’t know if I feel the same way, and maybe we could work it out, and maybe we can’t— let’s see,” that’s healthy. ‘Cause it’s acknowledging what you feel and it’s opening your mind to the other person so they can see, Oh, it’s a change in— like, the newness wore off. Okay, so what do we do now? As opposed to, Now I’m gonna stick a dagger in your heart. So that I don’t have to come face-to-face with the fact that I can’t hold onto my feelings for longer than a week.
***
Patrick: The narcissistic behaviors that I exhibited, came from a result of not being able to cope with my internal emotional experience, from a young enough age, that I disassociated, quite completely, and was living a life through images. […] I couldn’t have seen it. And I understand that. And so I have, the utmost empathy for younger me, and, others who are also grappling with this but don’t know it! Because that’s the deviousness of it for me, is I could not have known. I covered my tracks so expertly. That it was about the other person being crazy, or the other person not being attractive enough, or not being new enough or shiny enough or x enough… and that was my, my sort of, ejection seat. The easy out. That I didn’t have to confront what was actually going on. Which was that things were coming up, in relationship with this other human, that were bringing me pain and discomfort. That were, really, a catalyst for growth, but I wasn’t ready. And so I continued hiding until … I, sort of uh… time and fortune brought me to the point — and some really powerful people in my life — helped me come to the point that I didn’t have to hide anymore, and I was able to see it as a catalyst for growth.
***
Owen: If it wasn’t for narcissism, ADHD, and mania, nothing cool would happen ever.
This is THE 100TH EPISODE OF horizontal!!!
Naturally, this one is a bit different than the others.
In celebration, I am releasing a never-before-heard experimental episode, recorded on May 21st, 2019 — the 2 year anniversary of horizontal. In every other episode, I lie down with one or two people at a time. In this special, I lie down with 9! (Well, technically 10, but she had to leave 1/4 of the way in! So, 9 and 1/4. Rounding down. 9!)
I gathered as many previous horizontal guests, patrons, and supporters as I could, and asked my boyfriend at the time to join us. We recorded at Hacienda Studio, the event space of Hacienda Villa, my intentional community. We had three beds and three microphones. None of us were sure how it would go. What would come up when the 9 of us tried to have one conversation?
In this episode, I lie down with:
Kristi Ann, spectacular dancer and movement artist, and my friend who, behind the scenes, has quietly helped me choose between the titles for my episodes.
Kristi Ann, seen through the lens of Valerie Zimmer Photography
Mirelle, horizontal’s very first guest! Resident of the Villa, my housemate and friend, and, as you may recall, a consummate connoisseur of delight.
Mirelle with treats, on my birthday outing 2019. Through my lens.
Steve Dean, my friend the Superconnector, dating coach, dating industry consultant, and guest on episodes 82. 200 dating profiles, and 83. you do not have voting rights in this startup (relationship).
Steve Dean in one of the many NYC apartments that he has nomad access to. Self-portrait.
Jillian Richardson, creator of The Joy List, author of Unlonely Planet, and my most recent horizontal guest on episodes 98. withhelds & unsaids, and 99. indiana jones is my father.
This is that Jillian.
This 100th episode interrupts my 4-episode arc with Jillian and Dennis, but they will be back next week, and the week after that, with episodes 101 & 102.
Those episodes are available exclusively to patrons of the horizontal arts, so for more Jillian & Dennis, plus The Full Horizontal, which includes all the part twos (and in this case, threes and fours) going back to the beginning, become my patron! You’ll get all the independent, uncensored, sex-positive horizontality, and you’ll be a part of the mission that I share with Jillian: to make the world a less lonely, more intimate place.
Also in this episode, we lie down with:
Owen Muir, MD, my friend, a child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist, half of the team behind Brooklyn Minds, and the audiophile who made the first season of horizontal possible, by somehow mixing & mastering every episode in the midst of fathering, psychiatrist-ing, and running a business that is changing the world of mental health.
Tiana & Orion, my dear friends, poly partners, leaders in the POC (Person of Color) kink community in New York City, and my guests on their own 4-episode arc, episodes 78. surprise surprise he liked black chicks, 79. not gonna be the abusive guy, 80. definition of a primary partner, & 81. sneak attack group sex. These are some of the episodes I am the proudest to have made, and I’m ever-grateful for their bravery and generosity.
Orion & Tiana at 14 Rooms. Through my lens. February 14th, 2019
Venus & Jason, who have been patrons of the podcast and delightful, avid participants in nearly every horizontal event I’ve produced, including the podcast launch pajama party, 14 Rooms (my immersive Valentine’s experience), The Art of Trust (my connection games workshop), and horizontal storytelling (a live recording of the quickies).
Venus & Jason at 14 Rooms. Through my lens. February 14th, 2019
And Patrick, Engineer, fixer of things, fearless explorer of self… my ex-boyfriend.
This is Patrick.
In this episode…
- we do a round of “If you really knew me,” which is probably my favorite of all the intimacy games I lead
- and then a round of Brags
- we discuss the experiences that Jillian and I had with the man that we both dated
- disassociation
- novelty drive
- feelings as puppies
- healthy narcissism
- narcissistic personality disorder
- emotions at 110%
- opt-ins and opt-outs
- normative dating behavior
- and needing other minds to support us in not losing ours
Then we conclude with a round of gratitudes.
This episode is also unlike any other, because, with Owen present, we have the benefit of a psychiatrist’s insight.
Happy 100 episodes to meeeeeee! If you have any ideas for how else I might celebrate, reach out through the @horizontalwithlila Instagram or on horizontalwithlila.com
This episode was recorded by Owen Muir, with mixing and mastering by Irving Gadhoury. Find Irving at IGrecording.com on the interwebs, to hire him for your Tri-State Area based audio needs. My cover art was created by Shana Shay, whom you can find on 99designs.
And this episode features a remix of my original intro music by kidmental, an accapella beatbox musician. I first heard kid’s work on my favorite podcast, Ear Hustle, when he remixed their theme song. He creates theme songs for everyone, podcast or no, and you can snag one by becoming his patron on patreon.com/kidmental
Next week we’ll pick back up with Dennis & Jillian in episode 101, part three of our conversation. To gain access to part three, in which we delve into Jillian’s household growing up, that incident with the vibrator, Dennis’s high school work as a peer-to-peer Sex Educator, his biological brothers, the topography of our friendship lives, and how Dennis used to rely entirely on his long-term relationship to get his intimacy needs met:
Until next time, dear ones, may you have someone to love, something to do, and something to look forward to. I’m looking forward to attending Samia’s anti-wedding, today, November 19th, 2019! Samia, of episodes 59. i’m gonna fuck him forEVER and 60. consexual experiences, is getting married, wearing a skeleton catsuit.
Jonny, Samia, & I at the Courthouse. I call them: Sonny & Jamia! November 19th, 2019
If you haven’t yet, do me the honor of clicking the Subscribe button in your podcast player of choice. It makes a difference in my world.
Thank you for listening. Thank you for inspiring me to make 100 episodes, and beyond. Thank you for getting horizontal.
And now come lie down with all of us in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
Patrick, Lila, & Kristi Ann, during the recording of episode 100. Through the lens of Tiana. May 21st, 2019
Show Notes: (if you share, please link to the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[7:03] A round of If You Really Knew Me.
[14:26] A round of Brags!
[33:13] Jillian’s phone number experiment.
Jillian: A few weeks ago, I was feeling just kind of shitty, like I just had some interest in a few different men in my life, and they did not reciprocate the interest, and I was just in this kind of headspace of, ‘Men only wanna be my friend; men are not sexually-attracted to me.’ And I had a friend of mind give me a challenge, and he said, “All right, how about: Every day for a week, when you go into the world, you try and get a man’s phone number?” And I accepted the challenge, ‘cause I love a good challenge and I love […] someone to be accountable to, for a challenge. And, I was expecting that I was going to be asking men for their phone numbers… which is not a thing that I do very often. And what was really shocking about that week was that, just because I was going into the world every day with the energy of I am getting a man’s phone number today, every man I interacted with, I was thinking to myself, Could I get this person’s phone number? Do I want this person’s phone number? Do I wanna ask him for his phone number? And I never had to ask a man for his phone number! Because people kept giving me their phone number! It got to the point where I started kind of like, freaking out a little bit! I had my Uber drivers asking me out to dinner! And I didn’t even think I was consciously doing anything.
Tiana: Get it.
Jillian: And it was ju— (everybody laughs) It was like, I must have just lingered in the car—
Steve: Five stars!
Jillian: For like (everybody cracks up) two seconds longer— (everyone still laughing)
Tiana: (cracking up) FIVE STARS!
Steve: Excellent service.
Jillian: Excellent service. It was just so fascinating.
Owen: Most direct route.
Steve: Late-night hero.
Jillian: I was like, Wow! It really just reminded me that anytime I think like, Uhh, I’m not attractive or People aren’t interested in me… that more likely than not, people are responding to the energy that I’m giving out. And if I’m in that energy within myself of, I’m attractive; I’m interested in seeing other people; I’m interested and available, and curious— I think the biggest thing is that I was curious about other people and every interaction I had, I wasn’t taking it for granted, I was really present in it, because I had to do this unusual thing for myself every day. And then I ended the week with just, a bunch of phone numbers!
[35:52] Jillian and Lila dated the same man. How’d that go?
[39:32] Guy Winch’s TED talk, How to Fix a Broken Heart
Guy Winch: How to fix a broken heart
At some point in our lives, almost every one of us will have our heart broken. Imagine how different things would be if we paid more attention to this unique emotional pain. Psychologist Guy Winch reveals how recovering from heartbreak starts with a determination to fight our instincts to idealize and search for answers that aren’t there — and offers a toolkit on how to, eventually, move on.
[42:09] Jillian’s experience with that same man.
[44:18] Owen offers a psychiatrist’s perspective.
[47:04]
Lila: My reaction to hearing Jillian tell me that story was: relief.
Jillian: Mm!
Lila: It was, Oh. He does this.
Jillian: Me too!
Lila: So it’s not just me… and it’s probably not just her either.
Owen: No.
Lila: What I found fascinating— fascinatingly painful, was that he played upon our stories, of where we thought we were lacking or what we thought people didn’t want to give us or, how they didn’t want to see us. So, to me he was like, I don’t love you and I don’t think I ever will. And to Jillian, he’s like, I’m not attracted to you. And I don’t think I ever will be.
Owen: Right, so he figured out, for you, it was love that you could never get, and for her it was attraction that she could never get. And so he rejected you in just the right way to hurt you enough to go away and never have him be challenged again… by… you.
Jillian: Wfhooo. This is blowing my brain open. (Lila laughs painfully) This is blowing my brain open.
Owen: And, and, the sad thing is— individuals like this are— I mean, clearly, this is an individual that is causing chaos in the world, for you and probably for other people. And for himself. And, they’re often not able to engage in psychotherapeutic care— they have a dropout rate of 60%, and there aren’t really good models yet that have been proven to help. Which, ironically would help a lot of other people too, because then they’d stop causing all this chaos!
Lila: Mmm.
Owen: And this is probably, you were imagining your own hurt because he did such a good job of hurting you, but that did a REALLY good job of keeping him isolated, and alone, and not at risk, of looking at himself, and seeing the devastation he hath wrought… and feeling the hurt that might allow him to change.
[49:08] Owen distinguishes narcissism from codependency.
[51:23] Tiana asks about the difference between narcissism and someone who thrives on NRE (New Relationship Energy).
[52:19]
Owen: Well there’s a “D” at the end of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which distinguishes people with healthy narcissism from people who have a problem. And New Relationship Energy is normative. That’s a thing you can and should feel. It’s, do you need to create devastation in the lives of people at the end of that week? When you felt so excited, just to be able to get out of it in a way that lets you feel free and clear. That’s problematic. Right, whereas if you can say, like, “Wow there was so much energy, and it’s kind of died down, and I don’t know if I feel the same way, and maybe we could work it out, and maybe we can’t— let’s see,” that’s healthy. ‘Cause it’s acknowledging what you feel and it’s opening your mind to the other person so they can see, Oh, it’s a change in— like, the newness wore off. Okay, so what do we do now? As opposed to, Now I’m gonna stick a dagger in your heart. So that I don’t have to come face-to-face with the fact that I can’t hold onto my feelings for longer than a week.
[53:26] Patrick shares his experience with coming to terms with his own narcissism.
[54:32]
Patrick: The narcissistic behaviors that I exhibited, came from a result of not being able to cope with my internal emotional experience, from a young enough age, that I disassociated, quite completely, and was living a life through images. […] I couldn’t have seen it. And I understand that. And so I have, the utmost empathy for younger me, and, others who are also grappling with this but don’t know it! Because that’s the deviousness of it for me, is I could not have known. I covered my tracks so expertly. That it was about the other person being crazy, or the other person not being attractive enough, or not being new enough or shiny enough or x enough… and that was my, my sort of, ejection seat. The easy out. That I didn’t have to confront what was actually going on. Which was that things were coming up, in relationship with this other human, that were bringing me pain and discomfort. That were, really, a catalyst for growth, but I wasn’t ready. And so I continued hiding until … I, sort of uh… time and fortune brought me to the point — and some really powerful people in my life — helped me come to the point that I didn’t have to hide anymore, and I was able to see it as a catalyst for growth.
[56:31] Did this transformation have to do with having language for his experiences? What did it mean that Patrick was living a life in images?
[59:20] Steve describes himself as “remembering everything in the third person.”
[1:00:43]
Owen: If it wasn’t for narcissism, ADHD, and mania, nothing cool would happen ever. (everybody laughs) It is inherently grandiose to think you can do anything different than it happens. […] To think you can do anything different— than is the things that are happening, is crazy! Why would you think such a thing? And it takes a certain degree of… suspension of disbelief about your own normalness, to be able to go out in the world and say, I’m gonna change this in some dramatic big way!
[1:01:24] The iPhone is the way it is because Steve Jobs had a button phobia, Owen informs us.
[1:03:26] Owen on his psychiatric practice.
Owen: The way that my team works is, we use technology to facilitate having our minds together. ‘Cause you can’t— you can’t handle difficult things alone, in life. You need human connection to do it. And you need other minds to support you in not losing yours.
[1:04:32] What does Owen mean by “hold on to your mind”?
[1:06:05] Steve & feelings?
Steve: The way that I experience the world, it’s as though I’m perpetually in that space, outside of my body, where… things will happen that I think there’s an expectation that I’m feeling something, and, there’s no physiological response at first because brain is waiting for me to tag it. It’s waiting for me to decide what to feel. […] I basically am always trying to decide which of the competing realities I want to choose to live in.
[1:07:06] How Steve processes, and why.
[1:11:52] Steve considers emotions to be signaling mechanisms.
[1:12:22] Kristi Ann lives with someone whose emotion is his reality, and it is at 110%.
[1:13:43] Does Steve wish to feel more in his body?
[1:14:55] How Steve has automated grief.
[1:17:04] A drawback to Steve’s Superconnector identity.
[1:20:32] The ability to hold seemingly contradictory truths, simultaneously.
[1:24:44] How the man Jillian & Lila both dated began our flirtation by binging horizontal.
[1:27:20]
Owen: Most people spend most of their time thinking about themselves. And, having someone who’s so arduously demonstrating that they caaaare about you.
Jillian: Yeah, it’s like aggressive care.
Lila: Was it arduous? I didn’t experience it that way.
Owen: You didn’t, of course not it—
Lila: I binge-watch things all the time!
Owen: Sure. But he was— he was binging you. […] It’s a direct connect between the creator of this unbelievably intimate thing, and someone who’s demonstrating repeatedly and dramatically that they understand how important that connection is to you, which is deeply appealing.
Lila: So you’re telling me that that should’ve been a red flag—
Owen: Yes.
Lila: — that I was being manipulated.
Owen: No! It should’ve been a red flag that he cared to show you that more than other people, which is a marker for other things.
Lila: Couldn’t it just be a marker for liking me more than other people do?
Owen: Yes, but liking you more than is normative, right away… is not normative.
Lila: Does everything have to be normative to be okay?!
Owen: No, but—
Jillian: Dear God I hope not!
Owen: — this didn’t turn out to be. […] When someone comes on really strong: it’s probably not gonna last. […] But there’s a difference between someone coming on really strong, and two people realizing very quickly, that there is a connection.
Lila: I thought I was recognizing a connection, as I’m sure Jillian did too.
Jillian: Well he did the same thing with my newsletter, was just like, responding to every one, and like, saying specifically why he likes it, and like, going really in depth about why he likes me as a creator. And this does not diminish either one of our badass creating abilities—
Lila: No!
Jillian: — and how—
Kristi Ann: Definitely not!
Jillian: — fucking amazing we are!
Owen: And I would posit he actually meant those things.
Jillian: Totally. But it is— it’s like love— he’s love-bombing.
Owen: ‘Cause he can’t do otherwise.
[1:30:48] The state Owen was in when his partner fell in love with him.
[1:32:07] Does Patrick think that he entered this relationship with Lila differently than other relationships?
[1:37:28] Kristi Ann appreciates how there’s no need to guess in relationship with Lila.
[1:38:04]
Patrick: In the best possible way, it is a blowtorch for my bullshit.
Kristi Ann: Seriously!
Owen: horizontal with lila: a blowtorch for your bullshit.
[1:38:52] Ask culture vs. tell culture.
[1:44:22] Creating opt-ins rather than opt-outs.
[1:46:26] A round of Gratitudes.
100. the narcissist tried: horizontal with nine (guests, friends, & lovers)
This is THE 100TH EPISODE OF horizontal!!! Naturally, this one is a bit different than the others. In celebration, I am releasing a never-before-heard experimental episode, recorded on May 21st, 2019 – the 2 year anniversary of horizontal. In every other episode, I lie down with one or two people at a time.
Celebrating the 2 year anniversary of horizontal with The Confetti Project in May 2019!
