This is Dan, Jimanekia, & models for Radimo, Dan’s genderneutral clothing brand & inclusive marketplace!
74. trauma queen(s): horizontal with a manager and her/his client
Welcome to Season 3 of horizontal! This is the podcast of intimacies recorded while reclining. It’s still Slow Radio. It’s still consensual eavesdropping. It’s still us lying down, sharing secrets, in your ears. But while the first two seasons had me lying down with only one person at a time, season three will often add another guest to my pillow.
Jimanekia: I just wanna do sex ed and help. If we’re having these conversations younger, and we’re teaching people, then boys know how to get rejected, or girls know how to get rejected, or nonbinary people or trans people know how to get rejected so it doesn’t lead to violence.
*
Dan: The world fucking sucks. And it really sucks for Queer, Trans, Black, POC, Native communities, disability communities, and I’m learning so so much, because when I’m in therapy, understanding how I’m being gaslit by my business partner, and my Mom, that is helping me realize what’s happening to everyone else in the world.
*
Lila: What else is important? I think just the obsession with understanding how other people’s relationships are. Like eavesdropping. And watching people interact with each other, and watching people who are a couple, and that longing, longing for connection and longing for intimacy, comes from this just, childhood loneliness. You know, this kid who wants to have people to play with.
*
Dan: It is not hard to not be racist. It is extremely easy.
Welcome to Season 3 of horizontal! This is the podcast of intimacies recorded while reclining.
It’s still Slow Radio. It’s still consensual eavesdropping. It’s still us lying down, sharing secrets, in your ears. But while the first two seasons had me lying down with only one person at a time, Season 3 will often add another guest to my pillow.
I’ll be lying down with people who are in some kind of relationship with one another. And I intend to encompass as many types of human relationships as I can. They might be friends, family members, teammates, mentors and acolytes, business partners, lovers, exes, metamours, co-parents… You know what this means, right? That’s right: This season is going to be a Lila sandwich.
My first two guests of Season 3, Dan and Jimanekia, are a manager and her/his client, as well as friends.
Jimanekia is a Sex Educator, Queer media consultant, Sexual Assault expert, and Trauma Specialist. She is widely-studied and deeply-informed. Her work comes from the well of her own transformations, her personal navigation through profound pain and culture shock upon culture shock, and the fierce desire to protect others from suffering at the intersection of sexual assault, race, class, privilege, and trauma.
She is the host of the podcast Trauma Queen, a mini-series about healing, geared towards assault survivors and their allies. She speaks with survivors, therapists, partners, educators, and experts. Her podcast a gift to the world, a resource for survivors and those who love them — and, everyone with a beating heart, really — with each episode providing actionable, practical steps.
She teaches without teaching, educates without educating. You’ll see.
Find Jimanekia on her website Traumaqueen.love – that’s trauma, not drama, just like the title of this episode, and you can follow her on Twitter and Instagram @Jimanekia.
Dan — also known as Dannielle — Owens is a queer Femmeboy activist, and Jimanekia’s manager.
Dannielle also manages two other previous horizontal guests: Stevie Boebi, the go-to lesbian sexpert on YouTube, episodes 42: nipple orgasms: horizontalwith a lesbian sexpert & 43: the unicorn threesome: horizontal with a pussy educator, and Meghan Tonjes, singer-songwriter and accidental leader of the booty revolution, episodes 24: booty revolution: horizontal with a youtube star & 25: sex-ish: horizontal with a body-positive role model.
Dan uses the pronouns he/him as well as she/her, interchangeably. Let me model how that might go for you:
He is the CEO of gender-fluid clothing label & inclusive marketplace Radimo, which plays with gender the way I love to see gender played with, and focuses on directly supporting queer, trans, black, POC, plus-size humans, women, and disabled small business owners. Radimo’s pieces are modeled by folx with different body types, skin tones, and gender identities. You can find the whole line on the website Radimo.LA …
She engages in all sorts of glorious gender fuckery, on Instagram with the handle @boygodking, on YouTube as Dannielle Owens-Reid, and her forthcoming book, “From One Cult To The Next,” is a memoir about ending toxic relationships and the healing thereafter.
Many of you know that all the part twos of each episode are available exclusively to patrons of $5 a month and up. I’ve revamped my Patreon tiers with shiny new perks, and the upgrades will all go into effect next Friday, April 12th, alongside the release of part two of my conversation with Dan & Jimanekia. If you become a patron of $5 a month in the next seven days, you will be grandfathered in with access to The Full Horizontal, and my gratitude for being an early patron of the horizontal arts!
After April 12th, the first tier of patronage will be $10 a month, and it will include:
- access to all the part twos
- the secret patrons Facebook group with behind-the-scenes access AND
- a monthly video with curated intimacy tips!
- also… if you adore the love poem of the month, fret not, O patron my patron, it will be part of the video!
The perks for $25, $50, and $100 a month are even more delectable, and include my favorite new perk, in which I will plan a monthly date for you! With yourself, or with a friend, or a family member, or a lover.
I’m also running a sweet little special offer. If you become a $10/month patron by the end of April, I’ll send you a handwritten thank you love note and a bit of horizontal swag (maybe a magnet, maybe a bumper sticker, maybe something else) in the actual MAIL. Sigh!
I still Love getting mail as much as I did when I used to send bedazzled letters back and forth with my friend from summer camp in 1995. Also, I’ve been told that my handwriting is “ridiculous,” “astonishing,” and “like a font!” These are actual reviews, with no exaggeration.
In this first part of this episode with Dan and Jim, we tell our origin stories, which include loneliness, divorce, cancer, sex-positivity, intimacy, braces, bio dads and adoptive dads, relocating 10 times by the age of 9, latchkey kids, alcoholism, bipolar disorder / intervention, manipulation, therapy PTSD / advice columns, gaslighting, inclusivity, gender neutrality / queerness, microaggressions, racism, sluthood, LGBTQIA in the black community, rape, eating disorders, being an empath, burnout, sex ed
….and how we came to possess our superpowers.
We cover a lot of ground in this one. We’d better get into it.
Come lie down with us in Los Angeles, California.
horizontal with Jimanekia & Dan in Los Angeles, California. December 2018
Links to things:
Jimanekia’s podcast, Trauma Queen
Jimanekia on the Twitter, and the Gram
Dan’s gender-fluid clothing label & inclusive marketplace, Radimo.LA …
Pre-order Dan’s memoir From One Cult to the Next, about (paraphrasing) how they gathered the strength to leave abusive / toxic relationships, and the process by which they learned to accept true love. I WANT TO READ THIS.
Episodes with other Dan Owens Management clients:
24: booty revolution: horizontal with a youtube star with Meghan Tonjes
25: sex-ish: horizontal with a body-positive role model with Meghan Tonjes
42: nipple orgasms: horizontalwith a lesbian sexpert with Stevie Boebi
43: the unicorn threesome: horizontal with a pussy educator with Stevie Boebi
Show Notes (thanks to the kindness of two INCREDIBLY GENEROUS horizontal patrons, we have a transcript for this episode!):
[9:00] Lila asks Dan & Jim for their origin stories.
Lila: This is unprecedented. I will have you know. This is brand new, for Season 3. I am so excited and a little bit nervous, a little like nerve-cited to do it. So, I thought maybe we could do it like this: If you were a comic book movie, what would be your origin story?
Dan: Woah!
Lila: That brings you to—
Jimanekia: This is deep.
Lila: —the career you have now?
Dan: Woah!
Jimanekia: I don’t know comic books.
Lila: No no, just like, really just origin story.
Dan: The career we have together as our relationship or separately?
Jimanekia: Just present—
Lila: Just present day.
Dan: Career ok. Wow-wee.
Jimanekia: An origin story…
Lila: If you want to simmer on that, I’ll start someplace else.
Jimanekia: Do you have an origin story?
Dan: Give us an example?
Jimanekia: Do you want mine?
Dan: Yeah, you do one first. Oh, this is good.
Jimanekia: Follow the leader.
[10:05] Lila makes an attempt to tell her origin story.
Lila: So, my parents met at a child psychology conference in Brazil. My mom didn’t speak any English and my dad just kinda like gestured to her to ask her out, essentially.
Dan: Is this a real story or are you making this up as a comic book?
Lila: No this is really my, this is my actual—
Jimanekia: Ohh, my life is now boring!
Dan: Wow, this is really sweet.
Lila: This is my actual origin story.
Jimanekia: Oh, you meant like a real one.
Lila: Oh, yeah.
Jimanekia: Oh, ok, ok we’re back!
Dan: Oh, ok thank goodness.
Jimanekia: Mine’s going to be sad though, but comic books should be sad sometimes.
Dan: They are always sad.
Lila: Definitely, but it’s all the formative: What makes you you? How did you get this way? kind of thing.
Jimanekia: Dope.
Dan: Ok, I’m back.
Lila: Ok, I’m so excited. I’m so glad. I was like ‘oh no did I really? I stumped them on the first one?’
Dan: I’m just like not an inside my head visual person. Like, I’m creative in so many ways but like coming up with a whole comic book, I was like….
Jimanekia: …so stressed.
Dan: …listen…
Lila: I’m so sorry! (collective laugh) I feel like I just, I just put on so much pressure.
Dan: You’re just used to talking to nerds.
Lila: Is that what’s happening? That’s definitely true, but…
Jimanekia: I mean we’re nerds in our own right.
Dan: We’re different kinda nerds though, we’re not comic nerds.
Lila: I just wanted a better way to say, you know, give me a little life background.
Dan: I love it.
Jimanekia: You’ve made this so difficult now, Dan.
Dan: Now that you’ve said it and explained it, I’m like obsessed. I’m on it. Get through your story so I can tell mine. No, no, no, I want to hear your story.
Jimanekia: I’m on it. I’m ready. (collective laughing)
Lila: I mean I’m down with that. I’m glad you’re excited to tell yours.
Dan: No, I want to hear your story.
Lila: So my father is an Italian American from Brooklyn, he’s 3rd generation Italian. He’s got a really strong New York accent. He was very handsome at that time, my mom said he looked like Omar Sharif and he had you know curly brown hair and he like dressed all 70’s.
Jimanekia: I’m into it.
Dan: Yeah, I’m …
Lila: Big, big mustache.
Jimanekia: Your dad sounds kinda cute.
Lila: He was cute at that time.
Dan: He holds up.
Lila: Now he looks like Father Christmas. (collective laugh)
Jimanekia: ‘Tis the season.
Lila: I mean he’s adorable, he just… it’s a different vibe than the Omar Sharif version of my father, you know. But my mom was very taken and my mom was really pretty and she was a blonde at that time. She’s descended from Russian and Romanian Jews who emigrated to Brazil to escape the Badness. And they’re both obviously interested in psychology; she was a social worker and so they made this romance with very little common language, and they, I think they said they knew each other for… two days before they decided to essentially enter into a relationship with each other.
Jimanekia: Wow.
Dan: Wow.
Lila: And then…
Dan: When you know you know.
Lila: —they wound up having a marriage that lasted twenty years or something like this, he says this. I actually recorded with him a few—
Dan: Ooooh!
Lila: Yeah a few months ago. I’m really excited.
Dan: Yeah that’s so cute.
Lila: Except, I couldn’t get horizontal with my Dad so it’s called, “Sitting Relatively Upright with my Father.” (all laugh)
Jimanekia: That seems fair, that seems fair. (laughing continues)
Dan: Hilarious.
Lila: So my parents got married, he imported her to the states and they couldn’t have a child. They really really really wanted a child. And they tried and they tried and they tried different kinds of treatments and they tried all the things that they could try. And then they stopped trying and they had a baby.
Jimanekia: Woah.
Lila: And that baby was me.
Dan: Woah.
Lila: And so they called me a Miracle Baby and they were very very happy. We were living in Brooklyn, and then they bought a house when I was one. We moved to Long Island, Freeport, Long Island, which is a suburban kind of strange place.
Dan: Mmmhmm.
Lila: I was a really intellectually and artistically gifted child, and kind of an outsider, and very lonely and I didn’t have any siblings but they couldn’t have another child. They had me when they were 41.
Dan & Jimanekia: Wow.
Lila: And it was like, that was it, you know? And she had a miscarriage after that and they just decided to stop trying. So, I’m an only child. I’ve got a lot of memories of holidays of being like, there’s nobody to play with me. There’s just nobody around. Everybody is with their families and my family, half of them are in Brazil and half of them are not necessarily that close.
Dan & Jimanekia: Mhmm.
[14:42] Lila’s origin story continues, with her mother’s illnesses.
Lila: So my mother when I was 7/8/9 had colon cancer. She had a large part of her colon removed. Related to this is her manic depression and her bipolar disorder. She was on lithium for a very very very long time.
Jimanekia: Intense.
Lila: Yeah and they were very fighty. My room was on the left hand side of the house. And their room was on the far right hand corner of the house and I could hear them yelling in my room. I remember. My father had a woodshop in the, in the garage. My mother would be angry that he didn’t give her enough attention. She wanted more attention, and he would be working all day and then go into his garage. So this pattern of wanting more from men than they are offering reverberates throughout my story. Over and over and over and over.
Jimanekia: Mmmmm.
Lila: My mom survives and when I was 12 she divorced my father. I still think he hasn’t forgiven her.
Dan: Wow, well good job on her.
Lila: He’s glad that they’re not together. But he still has some animosity. My mother has no animosity. She wishes him really well. And she took me and moved me to Florida. At first they said I had a choice about who I could live with.
Jimanekia: That’s so stressful.
Lila: Oh my god.
Dan: Oh my goodness!
Jimanekia: So stressful!
Dan: A 12 year-old.
Lila: 12 years old. Yeah, 12 years old.
Jimanekia: Just trying to stay in school.
Lila: Oh my god.
Jimanekia: Get some snacks.
Lila: Trying to survive.
Dan: Yeah.
Lila: Getting made fun of because I cheered for one boy on the basketball team and everybody’s like “Oooh Lila likes you,” and then he’s all embarrassed and… Ugh. Yeah this is my 7th grade life.
Dan: Yeah, you’re like I got stuff to wo— worry about I can’t…
Jimanekia: I ain’t got time for this, trying to go to the dance.
Dan: Also it’s like your options are Florida and Long Island and you’re like, could they be more different. Like….
Lila: I didn’t know anything about Florida. I didn’t want to go to Florida. I wanted to stay and become captain of the cheerleading squad and shit. (Jimanekia laughs) You know, that’s what I wanted.
Dan: But you’re also having to choose between your mother and your father—
Lila: And then they said that was a mistake, you don’t have a choice anymore. And I was like “WHAT?!”
Dan & Jimanekia: OH!
Lila: I was super upset!
Jimanekia: And then you had to go to Florida.
Lila: And so then I had to go to Florida with my Mom.
Jimanekia: What part of Florida? It doesn’t really matter.
Lila: It was Seminole. It doesn’t really matter. It was super segregated, I didn’t understand. I was in a really diverse community and then I showed up and there were just all these white people and I was like where is everybody.
Jimanekia: (whispers) They don’t live there.
Lila: They don’t live there; they don’t live in that town. And so it was just like, it was awful, 7th grade 8th grade were just tremendously heinous. Kind of like girls turning on me, eating lunch in the bathroom, you know, this kind of thing.
Jimanekia: Sounds like my 7th grade too.
Dan: Mmhmm.
[17:34] They all go on a braces tangent.
Lila: (sighs) Plus braces.
Jimanekia: YESSS I had braces, mm. I loved my braces. I got braces again as an adult ’cause I loved them so much.
Lila: Really?
Dan: Aw cute! I got braces late, braces were really cool in my middle school.
Lila: Really?
Dan: Yeah 7th grade it was like, well cuz the rich kids had braces, so it was like really cool and I didn’t have money until my mom married my dad who ended up adopting me.
Lila: Mmm.
Dan: Which was like, 8th grade, so then I got braces after everyone was getting them off and I was like showing up to school like smiLING with my braces and everyone was like, “No we did that.”
Jimanekia: We did that.
Lila: We’re done with that? Oh No!
Dan: Yeah like….
Lila: Oh no!
Dan: We all have totally different br-brace relationships.
Jimanekia: I love braces.
Dan: Brace-lationships— Okay, sorry.
Lila: I just felt.
Jimanekia: Not in a fetish way though.
Lila: I felt so snaggly.
Jimanekia: Ogh. I was thinking about getting them again the other day.
Dan: Ok, but this is your comic book.
[18:28] Lila returns to her origin story.
Lila: Right, so so little Lila thinks that she is just the ugliest girl in the world and she imagines how she’s gonna be able to scrape the bump off her nose so she can be pretty.
Dan: Ooooh.
Lila: And uuuuuh doesn’t understand, doesn’t have anybody really see that she’s beautiful, that’s meaningful, because your parents saying it doesn’t, you know, doesn’t necessarily compute, until I go to summer camp in the summer of 1995 and it’s smart kid camp. And I’m like, People think I’m cute? People think I’m pretty? This is amazing! It’s amazing! I have my first kiss. And then I get in trouble for sneaking into the boy’s dormitory after hours, and I almost get kicked out of camp.
Dan: Oooh kay!
Jimanekia: Look at you friend!
Dan: Okay!
Lila: (laughs) Which, I was terrified about then; I’m kind of really proud of now. And we speed up here we go… I go an arts high school, I don’t have much interaction romantically this whole time. I give my first blowjob and receive my first oral sex experience when I’m, I think a senior? (Dan gasps, Jim hms) Yeah, and then I don’t lose my virginity until I am 19, in college because my mom had always said you know, “When you want to,” like “I hope you won’t in high school but when you want to, we’ll get you condoms, we’ll get you birth control.”
Dan: Oh, that’s so nice.
Lila: “It’s a beautiful thing when people love each other,” you know.
Dan: Like wow!
Jimanekia: Sweet!
Lila: So I didn’t feel the need to rebel against, so I, the way I think of it that permission precluded transgression. ‘Cuz it wasn’t hot and sexy for me to rebel, it was just like…
Jimanekia: You’re like, she supports this anyway, so!
Lila: Yeah, so, it’s cool, so, I can chose when I want to—
Jimanekia: Yeah.
Lila: And actually it was like, there was a certain point where I couldn’t give it away. Like nobody would have sex with me because I was a virgin. And then you know I wound up having sex with someone in college when I was 19 who was 29 and met him on nerve.com and it was— really just not very good and I was like Oh maybe sex just isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
Dan: Mmm.
Lila: And I only started kind of recognizing much later Ohhh LUBE!
Jimanekia: It’s a great thing.
Lila: And chemistry makes a difference and skill makes a difference and position makes a difference and OOooh! And when I had the revelations of like oh THIS is what they mean when they’re writing the sonnets. Like THIS is what it’s about. That was, that was big. I go to college for theater, graduate.
Dan: Me too.
Lila: Really?
Dan: (chuckling) Yeah.
Lila: Go to Brazil, learn Portuguese. Mom gets really sick. Uh, she’s in the hospital, she recovers. Mmmmmm… what else is important. I think just the obsession with understanding how other people’s relationships are, (Dan mmhm’s) like eavesdropping, and watching people interact with each other and watching people who are a couple and that longing, longing for connection, and longing for intimacy, (Dan mmhm’s) comes from this childhood loneliness. You know, this kid who wants people to have play with. Who has to lure a little boy into the hammock in order to get him to kiss her. (laughs) That’s one thing I remember…
Dan: And this is like the first booklet… of your comic book origin story.
Lila: I think this is yeah, I think this is like the….
Dan: First booklet and then you like discover your superpower which is your career. Right?
Lila: Rightrightright.
Dan: Right and then we launch into like, the podcast series or?
Lila: Yeah, kind of, I think that’s like, the third installment if we’re talking about a trilogy.
Dan: Mmmm.
Lila: Who wants to go next?
Jimanekia: Dan.
Dan: Oh! That was rude, you know I was going to say Jimanekia. (Lila laughs)
Jimanekia: You gotta be fast.
Dan: You really did that.
Jimanekia: I did.
[22:25] Dan tells her / his origin story.
Dan: Dan, ok, uum, (funny whistle) So… my mom had me really young, 19 years old.
Lila: Whoa.
Dan: My Nana had my mom when she was 16 years old. This is Mobile, Alabama. This is The South, and my Nana takes my mom as a baby from Mobile, Alabama and escapes her abusive family, moves to North Carolina, you know, my mom grows up, has like a couple different dads throughout etcetera etcetera. Has me at 19 with my bio-dad who’s in the Air Force, they’re in Hawaii so I was born in Hawaii. Yes, always felt so connected to the West Coast. I think it probably has something to do with it. I was born in Hawaii at 3 months old we flew to uhhh, California did a cross country road trip. I’ve probably lived in, phh— I lived in like 11 different cities by the time I was 9 years old. And my mom and bio dad got divorced when I was like a baby. They got divorced like pretty quickly, and I didn’t see him or like understand really what was going on. Obviously I’m a baby and then like, eventually I’m 5 and my mom has a new husband. Then I’m like 7, we’re down in South Carolina and there’s a custody battle because my dad’s like, ‘She won’t let me see my kid’ and my mom’s like, ‘You’re not paying child support’ and he’s like, ‘I’m in the Air Force it literally comes out of my paycheck, you have been getting child support from the beginning what are you talking about?’ Like, she’s not healthy, she’s not making great decisions for me as a kid. Also we’re poor, we’re poor as heck, and, she’s a runner. Like every time a bad situation happens which is a lot ‘cuz she grew up in an abusive, my Nana grew up in an abusive family. So she’s just cycling through men that are— shitty, abusive in all different ways physically emotionally, etc. and…
Jimanekia: Generational trauma.
Dan: Generational trauma.
generational trauma aka transgenerational trauma (noun) = trauma inherited from one’s family, passed down from the first generation of survivors, and reverberating through the lives of the following generations.
Lila: Mmmmm.
Dan: I stay on my own, I’m, I’m a what’s it called? A one child. An only child. (Dan laughs) I’m an only child and I’m like I’m on my own all the time ‘cuz my mom also like you’re poor, you’re in the South, you gotta kid, my mom’s working 3 jobs at a time—
Jimanekia: You’re a latchkey kid.
Dan: I’m a latchkey kid. Yeah. So I’m 5 years old and I have the house to myself, and also we don’t have like a ton of food so I’m creating, (kisses her fingers in imitation of a chef) mwah! The weirdest shit. I tried to make ice cream by putting ice in Cool Whip. Like— (under her breath) I don’t know what I’m doing!
Jimanekia: I like it. Creative.
Dan: We have tuna, but we don’t have bread, and we don’t have mayonnaise, so I just mix mustard with tuna, and eat it out of a bowl. Like, I’m making up stuff. Which is great because then I’m older and I like all kinds of weird shit. Which works out. So, seven years old, because this custody battle happened, I have to go live with my dad, his new wife, and my new little sister in Germany on an Air Force base for a year. So, plucked out of South Carolina, Myrtle Beach; in Germany, for a year. And I’m like Okay. I talked to my mom on the phone maybe twice the whole time. She’s engaged to another guy, yeah, (chuckles) I come back, she’s no longer engaged to that guy. Whatever. Some years pass, she gets married to my now dad-who-adopted-me-when-I’m-12-or-13, like I mentioned before. So, subplot that starts to really surface now is that my mom’s an alcoholic, and she’s bipolar. And from ages like 13 to 17 each year gets worse and worse and worse, and it goes from me being like, Why does my mom gets to be angry all the time and then she— like I can’t be pissed off about this restaurant. Like, it goes from that kinda thing, to me being so afraid live with her. But she and my dad get divorced, split when I’m like 17, and of course I like have to stay with her because she’s my mom. At the time he hadn’t adopted me yet. So it’s just like none of it’s good. I have like a couple of friends who are really supportive, it’s just a scary scary environment and I don’t really understand it. Because also, when you’re in an environment that is that scary and, the person isn’t physically abusive nobody’s really doing anything to help you. Nobody— it’s like you can be emotionally abused, verbally abused, like manipulated, trapped for years and nobody’s gonna— nobody’s doing anything ‘cuz they’re like, “Well she’s your mom.” So— And at the time so many of my family members were pissed off, that they weren’t speaking to my mom. And I’m— a teenager, from like 17 to 22 or whatever, I’m like a teenager; I don’t really know how to handle the situation. At 21 years old we decide as a family to have an intervention. She’s on her 4th husband at this point, which when she got engaged to her 4th husband that would have been her 7th engagement but— 4th husband. We decide as a family to have an intervention. It doesn’t go well.
Lila: Who else is involved in the intervention?
Dan: Uhh, my Nana, my two aunts, myself, and her husband. And somehow my dad who’s been divorced from her for a few years, keeps getting dragged into this. Because my family keeps conference calling me, they’re tell me like: I’m the only person who can save her. I’m the only person who make her better. Like I’m the only person who can etc., etc.
Jimanekia: And you’re also a child.
Dan: And I’m a child. And I’m a child I’m a full-on kid. I like, I had sex for the first time when I was 19 years old. It was with a woman that was like, when I was like I’m bisexual I guess, and then eventually came out as a lesbian. And my mom was like “But don’t you want to get married and have kids?” And I was like, “Oh boy, like, maybe I do. That seems like a different conversation. Maybe it’s not a different conversation.” My mom was also like really upset I didn’t want to wear a dress on her, wedding day, (under her breath) 4th wedding day and… (Dan & Jimanekia chuckle)
Dan: I’m like “I wore one!”
Jimanekia: “I’ve worn dresses!” You’ve DONE THIS!
Lila: You’ve done this!
[28:35]
Dan: “Two other weddings I wore a dress! Can I wear a pant at one?” (Jimanekia & Lila laugh and keep laughing for a bit) Anyway. And also in this time, too, she’s— she’s doing a lot of lying to me. She’s telling me she’s sober. She’s like, “I’m sober! I’m not even drinking!” And so that’s fucking with me too, so we’re— This is just like gaslighting USA. And also, she, she’s prescribed lithium, I think later, but. (Lila mm’s) So throughout this time: 21 to 28, I’m in a string of relationships that are not very healthy. You know, one, it’s not healthy in the way that she’s just like, very jealous, won’t let me hang out with any of my friends, ‘cuz all my friends are pretty; she’s convinced they have a crush on me. So I lose a lot of friends during that relationship. That kind of stuff. Another one where we’re just like constantly fighting like screaming at each other, and she’s telling me like, ‘You know couples fight, and we scream at each other ‘cuz we love each other.’ And like, me trying to break up is me giving up on the relationship. Like this kind of stuff. And I also get into a business partnership with someone that I’m in for 6 years, who kind of manipulates the things that I say and, takes my ideas and presents them as her own. And, starts to kind of like, try to meld us together in a way that is just like: stealing my identity a little bit. And so, all of this is happening, and I start therapy at the age of like pff! How old am I, like 27/28 I start therapy. And my therapist is: amazing, incredible, I’ve been going to her for 5 years she’s changed my whole life saved me. She explains to me that I have PTSD, and kinda goes through like what that means and how, how I can see that in my life. And I start to understand my like relationship with sex, and like shame, and how I’ve been, I’m like so ashamed that I like certain things that are kinky because I dated someone who was like, “Oh my God, you used a strap-on, you’re so fucking weird!” Like, all these things that have been just drilled into my head. Meanwhile, all this like other underlying stuff is that the world fucking sucks! And it really sucks for queer, trans, black, POC, native communities, disability communities, and I’m learning so so much, because when I’m in therapy understanding how I’m being gaslit by my business partner and my mom, that is helping me realize what’s happening to everyone else in the world. And I’m like Oookay. And it’s obviously not like an all-at-once revelation or anything, but, I start to just talk about it more. I start talking about it way more. And because I’m talking about like, you know removing yourself from toxic relationships— I, I get out of this business. It takes me a year and a half. She has me kind of trapped and she keeps kinda rearranging what I’m saying so that— My girlfriend says the best gaslighters gaslight themselves. And, that is why— I saw that truly happen.
Lila: How?
Dan: When someone is so convinced that like, they’re like, “Why would you leave me when we built this thing together?” and in your mind you’re like…
Jimanekia: “Did we?”
Dan: ‘This isn’t what we built though,” like: We built— we were answering advice using our life experience, and, another part of my journey too, is people would call us out and they would be like, “Hey, you guys don’t come from a trans experience and when you, you spoke on this you said that wrong.” And I would be like, “Oh ok cool thank you!” And she would be like, “OH my God! We have to make sure to research everything we say, like we can’t get anything wrong. Let’s like make sure we post a picture on Trans Awareness Day.” I’m like, “I don’t think posting a picture takes away from fact that we aren’t educated on a life experience.” And someone would be like, “Hey, I’m from the Black community, and like, you guys speaking on— like, answering a question to someone who has— who’s wondering about Black families, like, that’s not cool!” And I would be like, ‘That make fuckin’ sense! Like, let’s like, hire someone who’s Black to answer questions so that we don’t have to like, leave like a whole community out.” And she’s like, “Ok well um, we need to make sure to like—” Like instead of accepting it, she would be so offended, so frustrated, and so mad and just want to figure out what Awareness Day we could put a picture up for, to make sure people know like: Look, see? See? Like, we like, uh, highlighted one person on Asexual Awareness Day, so that means we’re inclusive. Whereas I’m like, “No. How about we like, give jobs to people, or like hire a writer who’s asexual,” or like, I dunno. It’s like so hard to remember the details, but—
[33:12] We talk gaslighting.
Lila: My understanding of gaslighting, at this point in time, is when someone speaks to another person (Dan mhmms) in such a way that diminishes their understanding of what happened, of the truth, that intimates that they are crazy, or unstable. (Dan & Jimanekia mmhmm) And so you’re talking about them— the best gaslighters gaslighting themselves; I’m so curious about this.
Dan: Just, um, making their reality—
Jimanekia: Seem like a reality.
Dan: So real to them.
Jimanekia: Yeah.
Dan: That they’re not even, they’re not even trying to make you think, like: If my business partner would come to me and be like, “Do you want to leave on Friday morning or Saturday morning?” And I’d be like, “Uh I don’t really care, do you have a preference?” And they’d be like, “No,” and I’d be like, “Ok I’ll go Sat— Friday morning.” And then they’ll be like, “Well, wouldn’t it be better if you go on Saturday morning?” And I would be like, “Well, I don’t care. If you want me to go on Saturday morning I can.” And they would be like, “Well no, I’m not saying I want you to go on Saturday morning, I’m just saying like, wouldn’t it be better for you?” And you’re like, What the fuck are you talking about? Like, you’re trying to get me to think that, but in their mind—
Jimanekia: They’ve already decided.
Dan: They’ve already decided, and they’re like, I’m doing what’s best for you. I’m trying to help you figure out what’s best for you. And like, what’s best for me is: to let me decide.
Jimanekia: That’s another part of gaslighting. Lila: That sounds—
Jimanekia: Another part of gaslighting is making it seem like you can’t function without that person. (Lila mm’s) So like, all your decisions have to go through that person.
Dan: Mmhm. Yes.
Jimanekia: Like, “Oh you lost a thing? You always lose things; let me help you because you need me to do all these things for you because, (Dan mmhms) you can’t function without me.”
Dan: Yeah.
Lila: It sounds like… she, was delusional, like she was in a delusion of her own making. (Dan mmhm’s) Rather than she… was making herself… feel, that she was crazy. Do you know what I mean?
Dan: Yeah. I mean. It’s so confusing. (Lila laughs)
Jimanekia: It’s a lot. It’s a lot.
Dan: It’s confusing to talk about, and the thing is like, the way that I realized that these are the situations that I was in is because my therapist was, would be like, “Well, you know, this experience that you have with Kristin is very similar to something that’s happened with your mother.” And I would be like “What?” And she would be like, “Well this: you know, you just said that, you were like, in a room and you were getting attention and that, you could like see Kristin looking at you from across the room. And that’s something you told me, just last week, that your father said about your mother.” Like if I was: if all of my parents’ friends were like, laughing at a story I would tell, my mom would look at me from across the room that I would shut up like that (snaps). (Jimanekia mm’s) I would shut up and I would get small. And I like hate it, I hate being in social situations now, where I like, don’t know a lot of people. Like, all this makes me really uncomfortable because I just don’t w— like: basically, I don’t want to shine. Like, I don’t want people to see how great I am—
Lila: Right.
Dan: Because I don’t want to take away from my mother’s greatness; I don’t want to take away from Kristin’s greatness, like, I don’t wanna— That’s kinda like who I became and, through learning all of this, through therapy and understanding PTSD. And also at the same time, understanding what was going with the world, I was like, Okay. I’m gonna start speaking out about this stuff, right? And because I was speaking out about this stuff, and I’m, 2014/2015, one of the few, white girls who was speaking out about race like, a lot of other white girls were coming to me, which now I’m genderqueer, but I’m just trying to give you a: where I was at. (Lila mmhm’s)
genderqueer (adjective) = signifying a person who recognizes gender as a concept to be experimented with in cheeky and unexpected ways, and thus, does not conform to traditional gender norms. Often mixing masculine and feminine signifiers, clothing, and pronouns, genderqueer folx tend to do so with humor.
Dan: Um, ‘cuz it turns out I was always genderqueer and uh—
Jimanekia: Surprise!
Dan: Hello! (Lila sort of mmhm’s and laughs at the same time) And that’s the other thing. I also started dating someone who hated when I was feminine which now I realize like, as someone who feels very like… I mostly feel like a feminine boy, which is, you know, confusing to a lot of people, but I don’t give a shit. Like that’s just what I feel like.
Lila: I saw that on your instagram the other day:
Dan: Yeah!
Lila: “I identify as femme boy.” I was like I love it!
femme boy (noun) = a feminine boy, one who identifies with both feminine and boyish qualities, regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth.
Dan: Yeah that’s exactly how I identify, but I dated someone who didn’t want me to be feminine, while also a mom, who wanted me to wear dresses like: Whoo! Fuckin’ with my head. But anyway, so I started to get a lot of white girls who were like, “Help me make my thing more inclusive,” and I was like, “Fuck yes! You have a platform, you have 300,000 followers or whatever, let me help you make this more inclusive.” Like, you know, raising money for mental health, like bringing in, um, you know queer women of color and trans women to like speak on a panel, like blah blah blah. And what would happen, what happened… four times in a row like bing bang boom, with four totally different white girls, four totally different organizations, it was like: me telling them exactly what to do, and something happens, pshh, within a week or something, where one person, a trans woman came to me and was like, “This person you’re working with has a history of abuse in the trans community in San Francisco.” And so, the girl who was working with him, I approached her and I was like, “Hey this is not a safe person.” And she was like “I just don’t think he’s like that.” And just shut down the conversation. And I was like “OH! Okay, so you’re not actually trying to be inclusive. Like, you’re still protecting yourself, and like white girls and cis white dudes way more than you are protecting anyone else. And the— you know, another thing happened where a comedian was really racist, and I was like, “We should apologize to everyone on behalf of this comedian,” and they were like, “Well, we don’t want to throw her under the bus.” And I’m like “Okay, so you don’t actually care.” So, all of this culminates to me getting very angry and then deciding… I started managing Stevie, which is how we know each other—
[Note: Stevie’s horizontal episodes are 42: nipple orgasms: horizontalwith a lesbian sexpert & 43: the unicorn threesome: horizontal with a pussy educator]
Lila: Yeah!
Dan: I started managing Stevie, just by a fluke. She was like, “Will you help me do this? Will help me do this?” Turns out I’m great at it.
Jimanekia: Super good.
Dan: Yeah.
Jimanekia: Nailing it! (Lila laughs lightly)
[38:53] The turning point of Dan’s origin story.
Dan: And then I’m like, here’s where I switch. Here’s where I figure out what my career is. My career is: making money for other people. My career is making money for: queer black women—
Jimanekia: Hello!
Dan: —for queer (Jimanekia & Dan giggling) for for black trans femmes, or like I’m… my life is dedicated to making those people rich, and when I make them rich, then I’ll get rich too. And that’s now what I’m doing, and Jimanekia, close friend and client, is an example of that. She’s a queer black woman who’s also polyamorous who’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met in my fucking life.
Jimanekia: (kidding) Stop it!
Dan: Who should be more famous—
Lila: But don’t stop…
Dan: Than anyone else. (Jimanekia laughs) And I’m just like, you know the amount of work that we’ve achieved over the last six months, if this is my comic book story, like yeah! I’m a fuckin’ superhero at getting her paid!
Jimanekia: It’s true. It’s real true.
Lila: Yehehess!
Dan: And it’s great because like, these clients that I have are so good for the world. Like, that’s how the world is gonna change is by, first of all, like fucking with money, like changing the wealth distribution, that’s the only way anything is gonna change.
Lila: Yes.
Dan: And that’s what we are trying to make happen. And that’s what I do with my clothing brand, too. Like, we just did a huge photo shot where—
Lila: Non-binary clothing, right?
[40:06] About Dan’s clothing brand, Radimo.
Dan: Yeah, it’s gender neutral and it’s all brands who are non-binary owned, queer-owned, black-owned, person-with-disability-owned like they’re all— any brand that you buy from on my site you’re directly supporting a business owner who is from a marginalized identity. And we are the people, like anyone with any marginalized identity, we’re the people who can’t fuckin’ start a business with a marketing budget and a brick and mortar store on like 3rd and whatever in New York City, like—
Lila: Because where you gonna get the— money?
Dan: Exactly! And like, you know, there’s like a non-binary designer in New York, living in New York right now, who, six months ago I think, was just raising money on GoFundMe to escape an abusive household, and now, we just did a huge campaign with 16 different models of different body types, skin tones, and styles who, are wearing their product in a million different ways. It’s like on this website with all these other brands, like, it’s doing what my superpower is, which is (laughs) Making money for people who deserve it.
Lila: Can people see that, that show? Is it online somewhere? Or? [Note: images on the radimo.la website]
Dan: We just shot the campaign, what, yesterday?
Jimanekia: What is today?
Dan: What is today?
Jimanekia: Two days ago.
Jimanekia: Two days ago, Sunday.
Dan: Two days ago. Jimanekia was one of my models. And also is—
Jimanekia: I just sat around and ate. (Dan and Jimanekia laugh)
Dan: Well, she doesn’t have to do anything to look good, so she was like, “I’ll just show up and put on a t-shirt when you want.” Um… but.
Jimanekia: And eat all the snacks.
Dan: Exactly! Jimanekia’s one of my models. But it was like so great to be able to pay all the models who were on the shoot, and to like, have people come to the website and send money to all these like small business owners, and (Lila mmhm’s emphatically) and that’s just, yeah, that’s where it all came from. That’s my story, that’s my first booklet. Yeah. What’s it called, volume?
Lila: Volume 1?
Dan: Volume 1. (Lila & Dan giggle)
Jimanekia: Wow.
Lila: Thank youuu.
Jimanekia: That was beautiful, thank you so much.
Lila: Jim, it’s your turn!
[42:05] Jimanekia begins her origin story.
Jimanekia: Oh, ok! Where do I begin? So, my family… is very interesting and secretive, and we will get to all of these secrets cause I found them out because I’m nosy. (Dan & Lila laugh) So, my—
Lila: Love it.
Jimanekia: My mother was born and raised in Lubbock, Texas for most of her life. My grandmother married my grandfather when they were, I don’t know, but people are like, people think I don’t realize that my grandfather is not the same dad to all my aunts. Like he’s only the father of my youngest aunt, and no one ever told me, except no, she told me in my older age. And I was like, she was like, “You know they’re my half-sisters,” and I was like, “You know I can count, right?” (Lila giggles) And she was like, “Wait, what?” and I was like, “Right.” So they moved to a lovely town of Riverside, California, because my grandfather was in the Air Force. They had no money and there were four girls… yup, four girls. My mother was the second oldest, and the oldest eventually passed away from lupus. So then there were three girls. They grew up very poor. Like they did not, have food, in the sense of like if they didn’t get like donations and food baskets they didn’t know how they were going to eat. And somehow they just kept fighting and my grandmother became like the manager of Kmart, um, same Kmart I worked at in high school—
Dan: Oh my God, cute!
Jimanekia: Yeah, it, well, we’ll get to that part. And he was working in the Air Force, like long nights and they would alternate— one would work in the daytime one would work at night, just so someone would be home with the kids. Fast-forward to my mother having me. She had me in her early 20s and was dating a pretty, like, shitty person that only my aunt — the one next to her in age, because they were like best friends — knew about. Um, they would like sneak out and go party in like the neighboring town and just live their best lives. At one point it became a physically abusive relationship, and he had broken her nose.
Lila: (whispers) Shit.
Jimanekia: And I’m not sure timewise if she was pregnant with me or if she had already had me, but he broke her nose. They broke up. Mm! I must have already been born. So then, Christmas time comes, and I’m born in ’87, so this is 1988. Christmas time comes it is December 22nd, 23rd, 22nd, and he calls her and was like, “Can you bring Niki over?” — my family calls me Niki — “I wanna give her a Christmas present.” So they go over to the house— we go over to the house, and they get into an argument in the kitchen. And he basically is like, “If I can’t have you then no one can.” And so they’re going back and forth and he had been known to be on drugs and be like a pimp and like all these things that you see in like movies that you’re like Oh, a pimp, a drug dealer, on all the things, shitty to women, very controlling. It was even at the point before this like, he would see my youngest aunt and be like, “I saw her,” and describe everything she had on and like, a holding it, so my mom felt like she had a— had to stay with him to keep everyone else safe. So, back to: they’re arguing in the kitchen. At some point he grabs the frying pan off the stove and hits her. He repeatedly stabs her, fleds the scene. The first responders come; they find me with her body. And so for me, like, growing up after that, my grandparents raised me, thank goodness. That I had them. The most amazing hot mess of humans that I’ve been blessed with. I remember growing up with my aunts, who were like my sisters. The youngest one— who is still jealous of me to this day. (Dan giggles) When I was born she was graduating high school. I remember being like seven or eight and we would like fight, to like fight, like she would like push me, and I remembered like kicking her in the back. Like “Don’t put your hands on me!” And I was just very angry, ’cause I was like “This is not right, you’re like a real grown up.”
Dan: Right.
Jimanekia: Like, “Why are you so mad?” And it was very interesting, so…
Dan: She’s just jealous because you’re the baby now?
Jimanekia: Yeah.
Dan: Oh my—
Jimanekia: Yeah, I took her shine.
Dan: Jeeze!
Lila: Whoa.
Jimanekia: And I was cute.
Dan: Yeah, well.
Jimanekia: Um but I mean—
Dan: That didn’t change.
Jimanekia: I know; I just get better with age, thank you.
Dan: Mhmm.
Jimanekia: But it was very interesting to grow up as seemingly an only child. As I got older, both my aunts had kids, and my oldest aunt Roy helped to raise me when my grandparents were working. So I would go and spend time with her. She’d come pick me up take me to school. I remember one morning I was at my p— I was at my house, and my aunts were arguing over what I was going to eat for breakfast. And I was so confused. But then it like— it really looked like a scene out of The Cosby Show, which I’m like, Oh ok, ,that makes sense. And they’re like fighting in the hallway, and they’re like on the ground, and my dad comes out— my dad, my grandfather— comes out and like, trips over them. And I’m just sitting there eating cereal just watching like: This!
Dan: Oh my Lord.
Jimanekia: Is this real life? Like, it was such a mess! And the argument was over cereal or fruit, but at this point, I’m already eating cereal, so I really don’t know. (Lila laughs lightly)
Dan: Right.
Jimanekia: What the hell fight was about.
Dan: Right.
Jimanekia: I’m like eating already watching this nonsense! And I’m just so in awe of these, these humans that are fighting over what I’m gonna eat when I’m already eating. So that’s my younger age, I went to a private school, which was a mess. In kindergarten I had like 3 hours of homework every day. And like my mom is like “We’re not doing this.” I had Spanish and Sign Language and History and blah blah blah. It was a mess. And I was learning how to play the piano— which I regret not continuing with. (Dan & Lila mm sympathetically)
Jimanekia: And then ended up in public school. And I saw like out of— at that point like my grandparents were raising me, like my dad was working at Boeing, so he had money, like he was making like $100,000 a year. And she was like the manager of KMart, and she had money, so it was like I never went without needing anything. Like, anything I needed— like my aunts would be like “We didn’t fucking have any of this. This is,” you know like, “I’m so glad you have this.”
[48:21] Culture shocks & Jimanekia’s story.
Jimanekia: But it was very interesting to go to a public school which was then predominantly Black and Hispanic, and, leaving a predominately white school, the private school to go here, and it was just like, a shock. And I was like Ok, whatever. Cool. Cool. I got picked on a lot, because I was always tallest, long skinny legs, which I still have long skinny legs. I got breasts early, so that was a thing. I had big lips. And it’s kinda like funny now, ’cause of all the things people used to make fun of they’re like “Oh my God!”
Lila: Assets.
Dan: Yeah.
Jimanekia: And I’m like, “You’re welcome bitch!” (Lila laughs) And then middle school came, and then we moved, to… a more predominantly white area. Which was again, like, another culture shock. It was like culture shock after culture shock.
Dan: Yeah.
Lila: Whoa.
Jimanekia: And it was all like Oh, ok, look at all these people whatever. I met my best friend the first day of school, which was great. We met in band. ‘Cause then I started playing saxophone.
Dan: Cute! Lila: Yesss!
Jimanekia: I know, I know. We, we had braces, because braces, were IN. (Lila cackles a little)
Dan: Yeaaah!
Jimanekia: And it was it was interesting like, I was always that black, the cool black girl, which, I always felt very awkward, but it was like, other black girls put me in that space because I just hung out with nerds. And I’m like, I don’t understand. So there was a lot of confusion, and a lot of like body things. And then I was around the white girls with a lot of money. So it was like the different types of people that kept like putting me in these boxes.
Lila: Wait, the black girls deemed you the cool black girl?
Jimanekia: Mhm, but then they didn’t like me, because I was a—
Lila: (overlapping) Because you—
Jimanekia: I didn’t fit in—
Lila: You were too cool for them?
Jimanekia: I was too cool. I was too white.
Dan: Ooohhh.
Lila: Too— ok.
Jimanekia: So then the white girls— so it was like it was very much separated by race and different things. And then the white girls would be like “Oh my god, can you come to our party?” And I’d be like “No.” (Lila giggles) I realized people were full of shit early on in life.
Dan: Yep.
Lila: Mm.
Jimanekia: And even to the point where they’d be like “Well we uninvited some people to invite you.” And I was like, “Well bitch, I wasn’t invited in the first place, get out of here, what is this?” That was around the time of like, really realizing my body. Because it was brought up a lot (Dan mm’s) Like, at that point, I think I had like solid D titties. Solid D at 12.
Dan: Oh, man.
Lila: Whooaa!
Jimanekia: Solid D, and I was very thin. But I played like sports, I played like volleyball and I was running and doing all these things. But then it became like a thing where people would always talk about my body. Then it was like, “Well, you have a white girl body: long, skinny, big breasts.”
Dan: Oh, boy.
Jimanekia: So it was a lot of, but this is also internal, so it was like. A lot of mind fuckery even in within my household and so, it was very tricky body-wise, like growing up, being like Ok, well, I have to keep this, which led to what? An eating disorder. ‘Cause that’s what happens. Um—
Lila: So what did they want from you? They wanted?
Jimanekia: Uh, pshhh! You tell me. (Lila laughs) I still don’t know to this day.
Dan: They just want to put you down.
Jimanekia: Just wanna… Whatever.
Dan: Just, put you down.
[51:15] Jim first becomes attracted to women in high school, but suppresses it until her late 20s.
Jimanekia: Yeah. It was a thing. So high school came, and that’s when I started to just be confused cause then I was like Wait that girl’s kinda cute! then I was like Oh no! Here, what is this? And it was interesting because I definitely suppressed my attraction to women until my 20’s, like my late 20’s (Dan mmhm’s) because also I wouldd have like, my mom— my grandmother / my mom being like, “Are you a lesbian? ‘Cuz you don’t ever like any of these boys.” And I’m like, “They are stupid, for one. Have you met teenaged boys? Dumb! Who has time for that?” But it’d be like: “Are you sure you’re not a lesbian? Are you a lesbian?” So it’d be like, “You’re very skinny, oh my god, are you wearing a bra? Your titties are so amazing!” like ah la la, “Are you a lesbian?” So it was like a cycle of what the fuck? and confusion. And then I was an emo kid, because why not. And so, it was a lot of things and a lot of different people putting their ideals on me, where I felt like I couldn’t find myself. So it was like a cycle. And then I went to college. Before I got to college, I met my first boyfriend, at KMart. When I started working there. He was older than I was, and he was very sweet. And he had a large Buddha tattoo on his…
Lila: (laughing) That is not what I expected her to say!
Jimanekia: Nope. Mn-mn. And he had curly hair that was always in his face, and he was, he was just the sweetest human. Like just sweet. But he was like, “We should get married.” I said, “I am 17. I am going to college and um, that’s gonna be a no.” And then I got to college. And it was another culture shock of like, more black people, because I’ve been around so many not-black people, and it’s just like all black people. But then, I was attractive. I wasn’t attractive until I got to college, so then I was like, Oh, my god! Everyone wants me! What do I do? I slept with a new person every quarter, that’s what I did.
Lila: (laughing throughout) Every quarter?
Jimanekia: Three months, you’re in, you’re out. Thank you so much. But for me, like, it was so interesting, because I was already practicing like my consent, and being like “No I’m not doing this. No, no, no not doing that.” And we would talk about things. And I think I started to realize like how I could feel for more than one person at a time, hence polyamorous now.
Lila: With women then in college—
Jimanekia: No.
Lila: —in the— quarters?
Jimanekia: No. Nope.
Lila: No, ok.
Jimanekia: Still very intrigued, had lots of lesbian friends, and I was like Hmmm let’s see what’s happening here, I’m really intrigued, how do I get into this? But still no. Still very oppressed and still dealing with it. And also like talking about LBGTQIA stuff in the black community is very not talked about. Or it’s like, looked at like a negative thing. So it was like, a lot of like oppression, and like figuring shit out, but I started to feel like— ok—
[54:07] Jimanekia’s Criminal Justice studies.
Jimanekia: I went to school for criminal justice because I watch a lot of SVU.
LGBTQIA aka LGBT aka LGBTQIAPD (acronym) = an evolving acronym referring to those who are not represented by heterosexuality or gender binaries. The acronym began as LGBT (Lesbian / Gay / Bisexual / Transgender) and becomes ever more inclusive of sexual and gender identities as it evolves. QIA (Queer OR Questioning / Intersex / Asexual OR Aromantic OR Agender) and PD (Pansexual / Demisexual) have recently been added.
Lila: (laughing) I just, watched, two episodes with my host last night because they are super into it, I never watched it before.
Jimanekia: So intense.
Dan: Oh wow, what a show.
Jimanekia: It’s very intense.
Lila: I was like, Why is the acting so bad? (Dan gasps!) Oh, oh no.
Dan: Hold your tongue.
Lila: (overlapping) Do you defend? Ok, ok, alright.
Jimanekia: I haven’t watched it in years; I feel fine.
Dan: Yeah, I haven’t watched it in years. I was obsessed when I lived in New York in like 2011.
Lila: Oh my god. Oh no!
Jimanekia: Yeah, well, for me it was like I wanted to help women, because I didn’t want them to be in the same space that my mom was in. (Lila mm’s) And I was just like, This is the only way I can do it, like I have to do this. So I did Criminal Justice, and I partied and did all these things, here’s what, here’s what had happened though. I didn’t go to class, and so when you don’t go to class, they kick your ass out. (Lila mm’s)
Dan: Right, right.
Jimanekia: And I was like oh no, that’s crazy. So, right?
Dan: Which is so funny cause you’re paying them. So honestly—
Jimanekia: What the ssss?
Dan: —like, why would you?
Jimanekia: The disrespect!
Dan: I paid you for this class; why do I have to go?
Jimanekia: It was an option.
Dan: Anyway.
[55:12] Jimanekia’s sexual assault.
Jimanekia: Right before I got kicked out though, I was staying at an off-campus apartment with some friends. And, these people turn out to be shitty humans that weren’t my friends. And I was sleeping one night, and I woke up to someone standing over me naked. And it was someone I had dated before and someone else had let him in, one of his friends, and I guess they thought I knew, but I didn’t. And I woke up and I froze, and that was when I was sexually assaulted. Like, people always think like Oh, you like were out, an blahblahblah, I was like No bitch, I was three dreams in, and I woke up because I felt someone over me. Which then kind of changed the course of my work. And so I got kicked out of school and I was like whatever. I opened a clothing store because that’s apparently what you should do. (chuckling) I opened a vintage clothing store for two years. (laughs and snorts)
Dan: Yeah?
Jimanekia: I am a Gemini, I don’t know. And then I became a rape crisis counselor. And, it was just, all donation time, like, not paid, and it was the most humbling and giving thing I’ve ever done in my life. (Lila mm’s) And I was like: This is it. Like, I don’t understand how I can do anything else. From there I went back to school and finished my Bachelor’s in Psychology. While I was in school though, I worked in different mental health spaces. So it was like two years in each space ’cause I was like I need to know everything; I want to be so well rounded. So I worked two years with juvenile sex offenders. Which for me I was like, This is a population! We had 11 houses, six boys in each house and they were never empty.
Lila: Ogh.
Jimanekia: Never empty. And I was like What the—! Mind fuck. And then I worked in a residential facility for teenagers, where it was just all genders, and like all together, and it was like a cycle of different forms of trauma. And would— kept coming back in, in the different spaces I worked with sexual assault. From there I worked in eating disorders, sexual assault. A lot of trauma, uh you know, safety was I’m gonna overeat. I’m not going to eat because then I won’t be attractive. So it led to deep eating disorders. Which is interesting cause my eating disorder came back after my trauma. (Lila mm’s) I was an easy, easy restrictor, easy, pfft! ‘Cause then I would just drink. And then my drinking got really bad, to the point I would carry a bar in my trunk. Like, I was like mixers, cups, bottle, here we go. And I figured it out, like all the things as I was like, going through all the work, and I stopped partying at like 26, and I was like Ah, I’m tired. I’ve done all this. And I went spiritual. (Lila mm’s) I was like H—how? I went in for like a reading, because I was dating this guy who was fucking terrible to the point where I was like, this is not me. He was like, “Have you ever heard of Herbalife?” I was like, “I’m sorry what?!”
Dan: Mn-nn.
Jimanekia: He was like, “Herbalife you know, you could lose a little weight.”
Dan: Unh-uh. No! No no no.
Jimanekia: I was like fucking like 30 pounds less than I am now, and I love my body now. And I was just like What?
Dan: Also, isn’t Herbalife a pyramid scheme?
Jimanekia: I mean yes, but I did have some. It did work.
Dan: Oh!
Lila: Really?
Dan: Worked, that’s interesting.
[58:25] The point when Jimanekia burned out.
Jimanekia: Yup, see? I have still have ED brain. It’s a thing. I was doing all these things and working in all these spaces of different types of mental illness, so I had, at this point it’s almost a decade, of just working in mental health spaces, and I get burned out because I’m so deep into it, because I’m an empath and I feel—
Lila: Totally.
Jimanekia: —everything. And I’m like Oh gosh ok! So I would take breaks in between jobs and like be a nanny. Because I was like Babies! Healing!
Dan: Yeah.
Lila: There’s a term for that. The burnout, that— the— like the advocate burnout, right?
Jimanekia: Oh yeah yeah, I don’t, I don’t know the exact term, but it’s fuckin’ real.
Lila: Yeah.
Jimanekia: And then I would do like weddings. I would like help create weddings for people. So it was like Happiness!
Lila: JOY!
Jimanekia: Go back to sad stuff, happiness! So one point I’m working at a facility in Malibu, this is— my first job in Malibu.
Dan: Oh, ok.
Jimanekia: Ayeah. And, one day I’m just like, I can’t do this. Like, this is unfulfilling. I’m doing my boss’s job, she’s calling in drunk, telling us how shitty of a boss she is. I’m having meetings with her bosses cause I was like, I’m not doing this. And they’re like, “Oh that sounds crazy!” No one’s doing anything, so I quit. Which is so funny, because this is how I met Dan. (Dan giggles)
[59:39] Jimanekia meets Dan.
I was like, I found an ad. As I was like, Ok I’m going to do sex ed, lemme figure it out. I started going to conferences. I found an ad to be a sexual educator for teenagers, as I’m leaving a conference. I apply, whatever, I get in, and I get to the training: late. (Dan giggles) I walk into the training, and there is only one seat open, (Dan laughs) and I’m like Well, I guess I’ll sit there, that person looks cool. So I sit next to Dan, and we became like instant friends. We were like writin’ notes, we were talking, we were getting in trouble.
Dan: We got in trouble, yeah.
Jimanekia: (laughing) So it’s just! The best!
Dan: It was great!
Jimanekia: And then I was just “So do you like wanna be friends?” Dan was like, “YES I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU TO ASK ME.” (Lila laughs)
Dan: I was.
Jimanekia: And then I was like, “Do you want to come hang out at my house?” “YES.” (Dan titters) I was like, “I know one vegan place by my house.”
Dan: Yup.
Jimanekia: I’ll take you there.
Dan: I drove all the way to Culver City for you.
Jimanekia: Yeap.
Dan: That’s how you know it’s real.
Lila: Oh I understand that’s a big deal out here.
Jimanekia: Yeah. Woof.
Dan: Yes, that’s a large deal.
Jimanekia: Traveling.
Dan: That’s a large deal.
Jimanekia: Traveling for love. (Dan & Lila laugh) Um.
Dan: So we were in a long distance relationship.
Jimanekia: Long distance relationship yeah, and then it like, was to the point where—
Lila: N-n-n-n-no, that’s a middle distance relationship.
Dan: Oh, ok.
Jimanekia: Oh yeah, I had long distance ones.
Dan: Yeah, you have real long distance ones, you’ve like, yeah.
Jimanekia: So I go to all these conferences, and I’m trying to figure out my path. And like, I want to do sex ed, like all this stuff, but I’m like, but there’s something missing like. I love the mental health aspect and I was like, Oh I have to be a sex therapist. Clearly.
Dan: Oh, yeah!
Jimanekia: So I put myself in grad school. (Lila hm’s) I do marriage and family therapy, almost until the end, then I’m like “I don’t want to be a therapist. I quit.” And my family’s like “WHAT?!” (Dan laughs)
Lila: (laughing) Oh shit!
Jimanekia: “I’m sorry what?” And I was like, “Yeah I don’t want to be a therapist, so! Anyway!” My family is so confused. And I’m like, That makes sense. And so, I know all the therapy things, but I didn’t finish. And I’m like I just wanna do sex ed and help. Because my whole thing is I feel like if we have these conversations younger, and we’re teaching people, then we don’t— then boys know how to get rejected, or girls know how to get rejected, or non-binary people, or trans people know how to get rejected, so it doesn’t lead to violence.
Dan: Yes!
Lila: Yes!
Dan: Yes!
Jimanekia: And so, that’s what I’ve been doing. And it’s, it’s been amazing and scary, and so scary. (Lila sighs) and A-MAZING! But scary, like literally. Like I, was working at another job this past year, in a facility where I thought was amazing. And it was the first time I experienced racism in a job, and it was a residential facility for trauma survivors. And one of my coworkers was just saying like little things, like, “You know, my family only wants to live around white people.” And I was like, Ooh ok, ok, that’s weird.
Dan: Mnn-nn.
Jimanekia: And then, I cut—
Lila: Microaggression-style?
microaggression (noun) = a subtle act, which often takes the form of an ostensibly “innocuous” comment, which betrays an underlying racism / discrimination. Members of marginalized groups, such as people of color, and those in the LGBTQIAPD community, tend to experience a myriad of microaggressions daily.
Jimanekia: Yeah, so many. I cut my hair and she’s like, “Oh my God, you look like such a lesbian now!” I was like—
Dan: (unamused) Ok.
Jimanekia: What do lesbians look like? I know plenty. They look all different to me.
Lila: All different ways!
Dan: Yeah, all different.
Jimanekia: It was just a lot. And it came to the end of her walking up to me, and saying like, “Oh my god your tits are so big, like I can’t stop staring at them!”
Dan: Nooooo.
Jimanekia: And in my mind, I was like, First of all, this is sexual harassment.
Lila: Plus sexual harassment and I’m like wow!
Dan: Seriously!
Jimanekia: Mind you, this is a, a house with sexual assault survivors.
Dan: Yeah.
Jimanekia: And I’m like, Ok, well here we go. And then the whole time I worked there I had to code switch. So code switching like, I had to change my voice and make sure I’m only saying certain things that I didn’t have to explain myself.
code switch (verb) = the act of changing the manner, tone, syntax, accent, vocabulary, and sometimes language (or version of language) that one uses, in order to be accepted and blend in with a group.
Lila: For respectability politics reasons?
respectability politics (noun) = honed by people of marginalized identities, especially people of color, these politics are characterized by conformity to the social norms / appearance / dress / societal expectation / manners / education / etc. of the majority (often, of white people) for the purpose of survival.
Jimanekia: Mhmm! And like safety.
Lila: Yeah.
Jimanekia: Like, it’s like a thing right? Being a Black queer woman, you have to adjust. Or do you?
Dan: Right. Lila: Mmmm.
Jimanekia: So I stopped adjusting.
Dan: Yes!
Jimanekia: But also it was like, I didn’t want to be that angry Black woman, ’cause there were no other Black women that worked there. There was no other women of color. And there were like some, biracial people, but were passing, in the sense that they just looked white if you didn’t know. And I was just like, I’m going to lose my shit and I’m gonna— old Jim is coming back, and I’m, I’m’a just beat her up. And I was like, Can’t do that. So like, she got fired, long time coming. But also like a lot of just— because I chose not to be a therapist, no one would teach me anything. And they would just disregard me, and I’m like, You do understand I’ve been doing this a decade and you will teach these people, that just got out of school the other day and are like 23. Ok cool. So I left. And I really was like— Dan was like (under her breath) “Leeeeeave. Quit the job!”
Dan: Oh I’d been saying it for months. Lila: Mmmmm.
Jimanekia: Dan said it when I started.
Dan: I’d— yeah.
Jimanekia: In January. So!
Dan: ‘Cause Jimanekia will text me and be like “This happened today.” And I’m like “No you have to leave.” Like—
Lila: Right, ’cause she’s telling you about abuse and you’re like, (overlapping) “Friend, I love—”
Dan: Yeah, this is a toxic environment.
Lila: —you! Leave!
Dan: And also it’s like, that kind of gaslighting particularly when, when a black woman is like, bringing something to the attention of at least majority white staff, everyone’s like: “You have to make a big deal of it.” Like, it’s a different form of — a.k.a. the same form — of gaslighting. (Jimanekia mmhm’s) Where it turns the situation around on you, like you bringing up your own safety is making a big deal and making it uncomfortable for everyone else when really, it is not hard to like: not be racist. Like it really isn’t.
Jimanekia: It’s real easy.
Dan: It’s like extremely easy. So Jimanekia is telling me this and I’m like, “NOOOO!” (underlapping) like I just can’t.
Lila: (overlapping) Get the fuck out!
Dan: I know, and so, and it’s like— It’s also funny because I’m like her manager. We had just started working together, and so her family’s like, “What are you doing?” but also her manager is like, “What are you doing, like what do you want to be doing?” (laughing)
Jimanekia: Oh yeah.
Dan: She’s like, “I wanna be a therapist, no I don’t. I wanna teach, actually I hate teaching.”
Jimanekia: That was the best! (Lila laughs) That was my favorite day ever. Dan was like, “Ok, let’s have me a meeting.” I was like, “Yeah, so um, I don’t wanna teach anymore.” Dan like threw papers in the air, was like, “Then what the fuck are we doing here?” (Dan laughs)
Lila: (laughing) Oh shit.
Dan: I was like, I had my little list, I was like, “Ok.”
Jimanekia: Dan did have a list.
Dan: So we can start getting you workshops at Babeland, we can get you do— like I was like…
Jimanekia: (overlapping) I was like “Nah.”
Dan: “Here are all the ways to make you a teacher,” and she was like “I don’t wanna be a teacher,” she was like “I don’t wanna t— I don’t wanna be a teacher, but I do wanna teach.” (Jimanekia cracks up) And I was like.
Lila: Wait a minute.
Dan: She said to my face, (Jimanekia & Dan laughing) and she was, “Here’s what I like.” I was like, alright, “Talk to me about what your favorite part is.” She was like, “I wanna be having the conversations that need to be had,” which, this is a great Jimanekia impression, I don’t know if you noticed, but she’s like “I want to be having the conversations that need to be had,” and I was like, “Ok, so…” and my like little producer like manager brain, I’m like “What if we start a podcast series?”
Jimanekia: (lightly) Booooom!
Dan: And she’s like, “I wanna do that, that’s what I wanna do.”
Lila: Yeahhh!
Dan: And I was like, “Well let’s do that.” And then you know we take like a week away or whatever, and we come back and, we just come up with the idea for Trauma Queen, and within two months it’s like, on the air with the first season is out. And we just recorded the second season it’s all about gaslighting and, like—
Jimanekia: Boom!
Dan: Mid-december, Season 2 of Trauma Queen will be out. And, it’s just like, you know both of our experiences, and then both of us, being like so adamant about understanding communication. And being really passionate about these subjects especially like assault, and abuse, and communication, and having conversations, it was like a perfect fit a perfect match and we both are willing to work really hard on it. And now not only— this is even funnier part, is like, Jimanekia being like “I wanna teach but I don’t wanna be a teacher.”
Jimanekia: I don’t wanna talk at people, I wanna talk to people.
Dan: Right. (Lila mm’s)
Jimanekia: Dan was like “Okay.”
Dan: And now it’s like, (chuckle) I don’t want to be a teacher but I do want to teach and now we’ve started going to colleges. She does, she goes to colleges and she’ll do an hour and a half talk and do like, workshops with the kids in the…
Jimanekia: But I get to talk to them…
Dan: Exactly and it’s—
Jimanekia: And not at them.
Lila: Yeah.
Jimanekia: And talk with them, and it’s been so amazing and I’m still very much in awe. Like the— I just went to a school last week and they were like, “You’re famous!” And I was like, “Who is, girl?!” (everybody laughs) “No I’m not!” They’re like, “Oh my god you’re so famous!” And I’m like “Uhh, I’m j— I mean thank you for these snacks! Thanks Dan!”
Lila: (laughs) Thanks for the snacks!
Jimanekia: Um!
Lila: I love snacks!
Dan: I got her little rider and—
Jimanekia: Yeah my rider was amazing.
Dan: It was like: hummus, gummy bears, sparkling water.
Jimanekia: It’s all my favorite thing!
Lila: Nice!
Dan: All the things you want.
Lila: That’s so good.
Jimanekia: But that’s how I got here. Like literally like, trial and error, and stepping out of my comfort zone and allowing people to love me.
74. trauma queen(s): horizontal with a manager and her/his client
Welcome to Season 3 of horizontal! This is the podcast of intimacies recorded while reclining. It’s still Slow Radio. It’s still consensual eavesdropping. It’s still us lying down, sharing secrets, in your ears. But while the first two seasons had me lying down with only one person at a time, season three will often add another guest to my pillow.
