Burl’s “Don’t Be A Lawyer” solo on the Tee Vee’s Crazy Ex-Girlfriend
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Lila: So, I recently read this article in the Atlantic, and it’s excellent. And it’s about why this generation of young people is just not having as much sex. […] Which obviously can cause a lot of issues— being that we need a population to sustain the older population, all of this, all of this stuff, right. And, from everything that I read, my conclusion is this: the reason why young people are having less sex, is because their tolerance for discomfort and awkwardness, is almost zero. […] They’re unwilling to stick their neck out; they’re unwilling to say hello to somebody they don’t know in person. […] They’d rather meet somebody online and know that at least that person has approved their picture, so that they don’t have to have the, the dance of, are you— are you intere— how much are you interested, do you have a girl— what do you, do you have a partner, what? And this is the kind of excitement in courtship that those of us who grew up before the internet, understand as… a kind of delicious mating dance, right? It can be so fun to be like, I spot you across the party and we kind of work our way around and we, but we keep orbiting each other, keep an eye on each other, and then we find each other by the drinks and, you know, brush into each other and, who knows if you’re married, who knows what’s going on… but you get the—. I just think they have very little practice in human interaction. And much less practice in being willing to broach difficult conversations. They would rather text somebody. Or, that’s why people ghost. So they don’t have to have a challenging, difficult conversation.
Burl: Do you think it’s about— it also plays into control, and the amount of control that we are able to have now in our world, (Lila mmm’s thoughtfully) due to these devices and online presence and, that when you do something like that, in person and, it’s awkward and it’s weird and it’s uncomfortable. And you have no control over how this is (underlapping) going to go—
Lila: (overlapping) Over their reaction.
Burl: Over your reaction, you don’t have time to gauge what’s going to come out of your mouth. You know what I mean?
Lila: Right. You can’t image-craft in real-time.
My patrons! Welcome back!
This is a headshot of Burl Moseley.
In this, the second part of my conversation with Burl Moseley: actor, sweetheart, and Triple Threat, we discuss the three C’s of relationshipping, reflective listening, Burl’s first kisses, willyoubemygirlfriendyoucananswermetomorrow, how movie sex and porn sex are like pro wrestling, online dating, image crafting, my theory about why young people are having less sex, relationship takeaways, and marriage. Then he tells me a story about crying on his shoulder.
I think these episodes with Burl are some of the sweetest I’ve ever recorded. I hope you enjoy him, as I do. I started the first episode with him saying that I wasn’t feeling very well, but in the process of getting horizontal together, I cheered right up. He’s just such a sunny human being. Genuinely sunny. I admire that so much.
Speaking of sunshine, I’m heading down to Miami at the end of the month, in the hopes of soaking some in. I plan to record a few episodes while I’m there, so if you know some phenomenal human being that I simply must get horizontal with down there, let a gal know!
My holiday blues have passed, I feel motivated and charged and excited — and my word for this year is Actualization.
Actualization. A year of Making It Happen.
Speaking of! I’ve got something really special in the works for Valentine’s Day: a live horizontal event. I’m curating the kind of Valentine’s Day experience that *I* want to have: intimate, immersive, sensual, surprising, and inviting of everybody — people in relationships, out of relationships, in situationships, people uninterested in ships of any kind, the happily single, the disgruntledly single. It will be a fundraiser, and all the profits will go towards shooting a sizzle reel for a horizontal TV show. My big big dream. The details are coming soon, and if I owe you a ticket to a live event, you can cash it in then, O patrons, my patrons.
Also. I’ve been getting really into Instagram lately. It has inspired many a photo opportunity. It has me dreaming of outfits that match the street art. Instagram is where I curate all those horizontal photos in unexpected places, and it’s where I’m beginning to experiment with video — in Instagram Stories, because they’re a low-stakes place to practice. But video is the next frontier for horizontal, and for me. I acted on stage for most of my life, but I’ve been on camera a handful of times. So I’ve got to get used to it. If you’re not already following along there, it’s @horizontalwithlila, of course.
Now. Come lie down with us on Burl’s couch (in Los Angeles, California).
horizontal with Burl Moseley in Los Angeles, California.
Links to Things:
This episode is currently available to patrons of $5 a month and up. Sign up, and I shall happydance!
“Why Are Young People Having So Little Sex,” the article in The Atlantic about our so-called “sex recession”
This article from Time magazine enumerates some of the ways that monogamous people can learn from the way that consensually nonmonogamous people conduct their relationships
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to this website or my Patreon!):
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
Another time Burl was on the Tee Vee.
[2:39] Burl’s Three C’s of relationshipping.
Burl: That Disney thing, y’know, is ingrained in every child at a young age and so it’s hard to like, cast that stuff off. […] But. I’ve tried to move more towards a realistic sense of what love and relationships are. And that’s, I like to say the Three C’s. Communication, compromise, and cuddling. (Lila somehow laughs and awws at the same time) […] A good relationship is built on those three pillars. ‘Cause if you communicate well, that’s so important. Communication is key. You’re dealing with individuals who, often see things different ways, so you have to try and get each other— you’re like, “I need you to understand where I’m coming from.” And the other person’s like, “I need you to understand where I’m coming from” and you have to meet in the middle.
Lila: And often you say words (Burl mmhms) and they don’t mean the same thing to the other person.
Burl: (emphatically) Yes. Yes. So communication is key. And, compromise. Everybody’s not gonna want to do the same thing, all the time, or approach something the same way, all the time, so it’s like, Look. If you go into relationship thinking you’re gonna get your way 100% of the time, that’s, gonna be a bad relationship, or it’s gonna fail. You know what I mean? Because— it just doesn’t exist, you’re, you’re once again dealing with two individuals—
Lila: That’s a dictatorship. […] Or an abusive relationship.
Burl: Or an abusive relationship. You know? That’s bad news bears.
Lila: Bad news bears indeed.
Burl: You’ve gotta compromise. And, yo! Compromise hurts sometimes. […] But, it’s for the greater good. And then, you know, cuddling, or intimacy, and that’s also, another pillar of a relationship, it’s like what keeps you connected. You know, intercourse and stuff like that, that’s like— you’ve got to remain connected and dedicated to your partner because, that’s what they’re there for. You know? I mean, you guys are here to support one another, so, be these supports. Be these pillars. Have this wonderful, loving relationship. And, together you guys can do anything. You know? (Lila mm’s sweetly) At least, those are my thoughts.
Lila: When you were talking about the communication piece… […] that’s what poly people stress so much, right? […] And also there’s been a bunch of articles written about how monogamous people can benefit from the way that poly people have learned how to communicate. Because, they’re making verbal… a lot of things that have been tacit, or implicit… that, is where a lot of misunderstandings lie. […]
[5:28] Lila on reflective listening.
Lila: When I went to see a sex therapist, and it really was, for relationship stuff, rather than sex stuff, because the sex issues were coming from the relationship, issues… with my ex, Alex. She taught us reflective listening, which is the most simple thing in the world, and yet, most people don’t practice it. And, there are people who find it tedious, and they don’t wanna— they don’t wanna do it, you know, ‘cause they find it to be too much work. But it’s so profound, because, I say, “I really want to… talk about this play party… the week before we go to it. […] So, he might say, “What I heard you say was: you’re feeling insecure… and, you, want to make sure that we have ground rules… before the party. Is that true?” So he’s, he’s interpreting it, […] he’s telling me his interpretation of it, his story about it, which is, what he heard, through the filter of his understanding… and checking back in with me to see if that’s true. […] Because otherwise, we would just communicate… without necesarily having the same understanding, of… of what it is, or why I want it. And I might say, “I’m feeling nervous that you might, flirt with people in front of me, and, I don’t want to see you touching anybody.” […] Or I might say, “No, that’s not exactly it. I just— I know that the last time we did it the night of, and we both got really frustrated, and we got into a fight— I just want to make sure we do it beforehand!” You know, so that we can just clear those things up, and there’s the repeating back, “Okay, what I heard was….. Is that true?” So you’re getting clear, you can get clear on, everything. The request, the longing behind the request, which is often where a lot of, I think, love language issues happen. That, it’s not necessarily about… doing the dishes, it’s that I want to feel that you contribute to this household.
reflective listening = a communication practice involving 1) listening to another person’s statement, 2) verbalizing your interpretation of what they meant, and 3) checking in with them to see if it is true, not true, or partly true, and what you may have missed, then 4) repeating the process until your understanding of what they mean is precisely what they say they mean.
[7:51] Burl’s first kiss in elementary school.
Burl: This girl was like, “Burl. Will you walk me out to the buses?” And I was like, “Sure!” (She took the bus, but I walked home.) […] And she was like, “Let’s go this way.” (Lila giggles) And I was like, “Okay,” it was kinda like a side exit. […] And so as we were walking, she was like, “Thank you so much, Burl.” And I was like, “Oh you’re welcome.” And she was like, “I think you’re really cute.” (Lila gasps) And I was like, “Oh!” I was like, “I think you’re really cu—“ And the next thing I know, she was kissing— she gave me a kiss. And then I gave her a kiss back, and then I was like… it was the first time in my life that somebody had kissed me on my lips… And I was like, “whoaaaaa.” And then as I was walking home, I was just on cloud nine the whole way home, and I think like, then like the next day we got like, we’d like, exchange phone numbers and we’d like, call each other and talk on the phone. (Burl guffaws)
Lila: Ohhhh, it’s soooo cuuute!
Burl: Like, about the homework, and also about like, life. (guffaw/giggle)
Lila: (ohhs and awws) How did it feel to be kissed on the lips for the first time?
Burl: Odd, but also, right.
[9:54] Burl on his first girlfriend.
Burl: My first girlfriend was in 7th grade, oh my God I was so terrified. I liked this girl sooo much. So, she lived in the neighborhood, and I was like— she had been dating some other guy, but they broke up— and I was like, Okay, (psyching himself up) Oh boy, Burl, okay! You’ve been waiting for this moment, okay! Here it is, oh, okay, here’s your big moment. So we’re playing on the playground, and then there was like a pause in the, in the play. She was like sittin’ down, and— with a, with another friend and I was like, Okay, here’s the moment, okay, here it is, Burl. You got this you got this you got this. So I walked over, and, just, like, it just spilled outta my mouth and I was like, “Hey-I-kinda-like-you-and-I-think-you-like-me-too-will-you-be-my-girlfriend-you-can-answer-me-tomorrow!” And like ran home! (both crack up)
[…]
She said yes, and then like, we dated for a week. And then we broke up, and um, when we broke up, I was like, (distressed) Why did we break up? And, the word on the street was that we broke up because I didn’t French kiss her, and I was like, I didn’t even know what that was! So of course I can’t do something I don’t know about! Right, so we became friends. The following year, I dated one of her friends. And so, my original girlfriend for one week, and her then-boyfriend, and my now-girlfriend, at one of the school dances, I saw them, they were like, whisper whisper whisper, and they came up to me and the other guy, and they were like, (hushed tone) “You guys wanna come to the side of the building?” I’m like, “What’s happening at the side of the building?” Went out to the side of the building… and then the girls paired off, my girlfriend with me and, y’know, her boyfriend with her, and then these girls just started French-kissing us. And it was— that was my first French kiss. And then I was like, Ohh! I was like, what’s happening, I was like, why is your tongue in m— Oh! Oh yeah, I heard about this.
[12:24] Did Burl like French kisssing?
[12:29] Lila on her first French kiss. (Slobbery.)
[12:53] The scene in Party of Five where Neve Campbell’s character teaches her little sister how to French kiss. Burl learned a lot.
[15:51] Burl tells Lila next-to-nothing about his sexual debut, in which he and his partner, both virgins, had a pleasant experience.
[17:16] How did they even know what to do, if they were both virgins? (Burl chalks it up to the ancestors.)
[19:50] Lila on communicating during sex.
Lila: That’s something that most people don’t learn until much much much much later.
Burl: Oh really?
Lila: Yeah. It’s quite incredible that you had this kind of checking in, interaction during your first sexual encounter. Because there is a… There is a well-regarded fallacy, about sexuality, that if you’re “doing it right,” you don’t need to say anything. (Burl makes confused cartoon Scooby Doo-type noise) And if you’re really attracted to each other, then it will just be entirely wordless, and if you talk, then it takes away the zazz, and it’s less sexy, if you talk. Because of movies.
Burl: Ohhhhhh.
Lila: Because there are rarely beautiful, sexy representations of people being like, “Is that good? Do you like that? Do you want more intensity? Do you want faster? […] Higher?” You know, you just rarely have that kind of dialogue portrayed.
Burl: Yeah. Yeah.
Lila: And so, you know, you just have the … the bedroom, and they fall into the bed and the music swells and montage montage montage!
Burl: (chuckling) I always thought that stuff was a little weird and funny. As a matter of fact, I remember, one girlfriend of mine, we used to kind of like, play it up, we’d be like, “Okay, now let’s kiss like they do in movies,” and so we’d be like, Okay, and we’d get like really breathy and be like, (breathy) like all over each other, (breathy breathy, fast fast) you know, all of a sudden the clothes come off and then you’re still kissing you’re always kissing, always kissing, always remain lip contact, clothes off, and I was like, “Knock something over, knock something over!” (both crack up) […] I always thought that was so, funny and ridiculous, but also like, I was like, Really?
Lila: I don’t know how you had such a measured, accurate perspective, because most people are looking at that— also, I think people are scratching their heads— young people, right, they’re like, Movie sex: clearly th— I mean, they’re just, you know, everything looks great, everybody c— she comes, all the time, she’s like, “I can’t do that.” And then, they’re looking at porn, and they’re like, Okay, she also comes just from penetration alone, I can’t do that, and, there’s just these outlandish cocks, and and this just like— you know? And and they’re not able to reconcile this movie sex and porn sex with real sex.
Burl: I think I was fortunate to come of age— you know, and go through all that stuff, before the whole internet porn was rampant.
Lila: Yeah.
Burl: You know what I mean?
Lila: Yeah!
Burl: So you had to feel it out more, on your own. There were no preconceived notions of, how any of this was gonna go. […]
Lila: Had you seen pictures of?
Burl: Yeh, yeah.
Lila: Sexy magazines and things.
Burl: Yes. Yes. Yes I had.
Lila: But you hadn’t seen any recorded pornography?
Burl: No, I had. Before my first time. But, I saw, one thing once, and I was very confused by it. I was like, Why is everyone yelling so much? […] I hadn’t even began to study acting yet, but something about it seemed very, performance-based. […] I was like, What’s happening? When did these people stop being people?
Lila: If we could see it— If we could frame it for our society, as sex entertainment. If we could frame them as the All-Star Athletes of Sex. […] And understand that, like in professional wrestling, some of it may be trumped up for our […] amusement and our excitement. […] And that, some of it is fantastical, and some of it is just stretching the truth. And some of it is the fact that p— these people train for this, like an Olympian would train, for their sport. If we understood that, if we made that widely understood, then it could just be enjoyed for the, the titillating entertainment that it is. […] But it’s not widely understood, and it is where most young people are getting their sex ed. And it’s so unfortunate. Reid Mihalko, who’s a sex educator, says, “Learning about sex by watching porn, is like learning how to drive by watching The Fast and the Furious.”
[24:52] Burl treats Lila to his porn impression, and she is glad.
[25:27] Lila on the Atlantic article about why young people are having less sex these days. Also, she has a theory.
[27:58] Burl on the fact that some of his friends now have telephone anxiety.
This is Burl doing theatre. I found this image on the interwebz.
[28:28] Burl on the potential gap between someone’s texting personality, and their personality in real life.
Burl: And I also run into people who are like, “Oh man, yeah, he was, he was so witty over text and then— […] you know we went out on a date and—
Lila: He’s completely socially awkward!
Burl: Yeah. […] And I was like, “Well, how often was he texting you back?” They’re like, “Well I would text him and the he would text me back after a few hours, then I would text him after a few hours, and like, the next day he would text me.”
Lila: Oh my gosh.
Burl: And I was like, “These people are literally writing novels in their heads, before they send this text back,” I mean.
Lila: (giggling) And then they whittle it down to five words. […] Yeah, I do think that some of it is about control, but the control, underneath is is uhhm, an anxiety about not being able to prove yourself worthy, in the moment. That everything has to be presentable, for you to be worthy of love.
Burl: Yeah. Isn’t that sad. That makes me sad. […] And that’s the other thing, I was like, I was like, Wait, so, we’re judging people now based on a photograph? Or a few photographs? And it’s like, yeah I like these photographs of this person, and this nice witty thing that they said in this bio, or I don’t like these photographs of this person, I was like, Do you know how many people I’ve met in my life, how many couples, who say, “First time I met him I didn’t like him.” Or, “First time I met her, I didn’t think anything.” […] But, they still agreed to meet up and then — or they saw each other again and came back around but then— and you know, it’s like, it’s like, if they had just based each other on like—
Lila: I know.
Burl: A photograph? They never would have had this happy, loving relationship — or marriage — that they now have, you know?
Lila: I mostly meet people in real life. And I try— but I still am on the apps, I’m on all the apps, I just don’t usually meet people from it. But I try to kind of reverse engineer it, and I think, Oh, if this British guy — who I’m wildly attracted to; I met at this party the other night — if I came across his picture, would I be swiping left, or would I be swiping right? And, a lot of times, everything that is, unquantifiable— everything that you cannot feel until you are in person, has no opportunity to be explored!
Burl: And that’s the other thing, like, when you’re looking at a screen, you don’t know how this person sounds; you don’t know how they smell. You don’t know what touch is like from them. Or what it’s like to touch them. And those can all be very powerful things that lead you to make a decision about whether or not you wanna date someone, versus, just looking at a 2D image, on a screen. […]
Lila: The smell is so— for me, the pheremones are so so powerful. And also… there is charm that is non-capturable in photographs, that can absolutely make someone desirable to you.
Burl: Look: what, I think it’s a line in a Kanye song, or at least a Kanye verse, it’s like, “Some of the prettiest people do the ugliest things.”
[31:50] Lila marvels at how Burl could meet people in L.A. and Burl tells stories about how pretty much everybody in L.A. talks to him.
[35:29] Lila’s theory about compliments.
Lila: When I was in college, I determined that, when I thought a compliment, it didn’t belong to me. And so I had to return it to its rightful owner, which is the person that I thought it about. And so I try, I endeavor, to return all the compliments to their rightful owners.
[36:52] Since Burl is such an incredible mimic, Lila asks him to try to impersonate her voice. How did it sound?
[37:58] Lila asks Burl a question that he won’t answer.
[38:28] Has Burl has any long-term relationships?
[38:38]
Burl: I was actually thinking about this yesterday! I was thinking about, somebody had written, that, between the hello and the goodbye, there was love. And I was like, Oh yeah. I think that’s so wonderful to think of relationships that way.
[39:07] Burl on relationship takeaways.
[41:47] Long-term relationships and their endings.
Lila: So if all your relationships— all your long-term relationships, have been wonderful, why did they end?
Burl: Sometimes they end because you know, and they know, that it’s not going any further. And you don’t want to, waste each other’s time.
Lila: When you say “further,” you mean, towards marriage?
Burl: Yeh. Yeh.
Lila: You want to get married?
Burl: Uch… you know… there was a time when I definitely wanted it. When I was definitely like, (almost growls) YES. Marriage is the end goal of life.
This Burl was on imdb.
Lila: I’m just saying, that I had an image of you in a white suit just now.
Burl: Oh wow.
Lila: With a white bow tie.
Burl: Wow that’s crazy.
Lila: I’m just saying.
Burl: Wow.
Lila: Go on.
Burl: There was a time, when, you know, because, it was a story that had been fed your whole like, that this was the way things go, you know, you, you grow up and you go to school and then you go to college and, you know, you find a wife you get married, you have children, and then you die. And, I was like—
Lila: Maybe a black bow tie.
Burl: Maybe a— okay. I like that.
Lila: White suit, black bow tie.
Burl: Yeah, but you know, I sort of bought into this thing like, hook line and sinker. But now the more that I look at it… I could go either way. Like I’m fine, either way. I could get married, or I could not. I could have children, or I could not. Because the thing that I’ve learned about life, is that, it doesn’t go the way you… think. Or the way that you plan. […]
Lila: I always think of this line from Sex & the City, where it’s, I think Candice Bergen’s character, and she says, “Don’t expect it to look like what you thought it was going to look like.” And I always try to remember that.
Burl: I always think of this line from The Last Jedi that Luke Skywalker says to Rey. He says, “This is not going to go the way you think.”
[43:54] Burl tells Lila a story about crying on shoulders.
[49:01]
Lila: I could just burst into tears right now. I’ve done a lot of crying on this trip, actually. Which, is clearly needed. I think I don’t cry at home, that much. And I do live in an intentional community with 13 other people, right, so, I’m very aware that when I cry, probably, people will hear me. I don’t necessarily have a problem with them hearing me. But my, my awareness of how I, how I impact other people, stays with me as I’m crying, and I’m concerned that they will be concerned about me. Which keeps me from fully releasing. And so, it’s been amazing, when I went on that road trip last year, I was just by myself in the car like, I could just cry and scream and wail, and it felt so good to have that space to be able to do it. I wonder if it would be different if I lived alone— I don’t want to live alone; I feel very very good in community, because it it hits that, that loneliness spot, it really heals that in me, to live in community, and I, I’ve been thinking about wanting to be other places, but I realize how valuable that community is for me, and so now I’m thinking, maybe I can be poly-dorm-orous? Poly— (giggles) and I can have my primary relationship be with my intentional community, and then I can have secondary relationships with other cities. […] Date other cities.
