This is Samia Mounts, in her natural habitat.
59. I’m gonna fuck him forEVER: horizontal with a polyamorous podcaster of political proportions
Horizontal is a podcast of intimacies recorded while lying down. Think of it as consensual eavesdropping. Together, we’re making private conversations public, in order to dispel shame, diminish loneliness, and alchemize human connection. Brene Brown, the world-renowned researcher/storyteller and expert on vulnerability, shame, and courage, states that shame (in a petri dish) needs 3 things to survive: secrecy, silence, and judgement.
Samia: This grown man, understood that a woman needs to be warmed up, and he like, I like it when they eat you like they’re starving and you’re the best food they’ve ever tasted. And I like it when they start with that, and then after they’ve made you come once or twice, just that way, then they’d start with the fingers, and they make you come once or twice that way.
Lila: (languidly) Mmm.
Samia: This is what this guy was doing. He was just giving me the full everything, and this was all on the couch.
Lila: So you don’t get too sensitive after having a clitoral orgasm. To have, your second one.
Samia: I can come and come and come.
Lila: Damn.
Samia: That was the other thing— he also told me I was the most multi-orgasmic woman he’d ever been with and I’m really proud of that, ‘cause I’m pretty sure he’s fucked a lot. (laughing) Uhhahahum.
Lila: You sound like, the most multi-orgasmic woman I’ve ever known.
Samia: I— and this happened at the same time as that hormonal shift in my 30s that changed my attraction. Suddenly I could have, orgasms with penetration, suddenly I was having orgasms every time I had sex, even if it was kinda bad, I would still come.
Lila: What?!
Samia: Yeah, it’s nuts— I just come like a monster. And when sex is good, I can come 30, 40 times in one session.
Lila: What?!
Samia: You can— if you’re doing it right, I can come every couple of—
Lila: What?!
Samia: — minutes, literally.
Lila: 30, 40 times?!
Samia: Like literally, every couple of minutes, I’ll come.
Lila: And it’s the full-on—
Samia: They, they vary in intensity—
Lila: Contractions—
Samia: — but typically they get stronger and stronger and stronger. And there comes a point where I’m so exhausted—
Lila: What?!
Samia: — where I can’t come anymore, and then, the guy will come. (Samia laughs)
Lila: I just masturbated yesterday, and I was super-psyched that I was able to make myself come twice. I was like:
OH MY GOD I’VE DONE IT.
Samia: When I masturbate, it’s not like that, it’s totally different. There’s something about actual sex with another human being. When I masturbate, it can take an hour for me to come, because I get distracted. It’s true. I’ll start thinking about all sorts of shit when I’m masturbating. I’ll think about how I should do a certain line in Mercutio’s death scene—
Lila: Really?
Samia: In Romeo & Juliet. Like, I will think about how I’m gonna schedule my next day.
Lila: I’ll get distracted, but I’m bouncing around from fantasy to fantasy.
Samia: Ugh, I wish I could stay focused on fantasies when I’m masturbating. It’s such a problem. But I also kinda use the time to get all my thoughts out. (both laugh) It’s like— it’s my “me time.”
Horizontal is a podcast of intimacies recorded while lying down. Think of it as consensual eavesdropping.
Together, we’re making private conversations public, in order to dispel shame, diminish loneliness, and alchemize human connection.
Brené Brown, the world-renowned researcher/storyteller and expert on vulnerability, shame, and courage, states that shame (in a petri dish) needs 3 things to survive: secrecy, silence, and judgement. If you put the same amount of shame in a petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can’t survive.
I envision this podcast as a douse of empathy.
This too, is Samia Mounts.
In this episode, I lie down with Samia Mounts in my bed at Hacienda Villa, the sex-positive intentional community in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
Samia is a singer, actress, voice-over artist, creator of music, and a polyamorous podcaster of political proportions, with a voice built for stadiums and arenas. She is a bisexual babe, a military kid, a half-Jordanian woman who grew up largely in South Korea, an advocate for nontraditional relationship structures, and a great believer in horizontality.
Currently based in Korea, I was fortunate enough to get horizontal with her when she was in town to sing at the Kennedy Center.
You may remember that I enthusiastically recommended Samia’s political podcast: Make America Relate Again. In it, Samia did something I’d never heard before in my life — she had respectful conversations about politics with women who voted for Donald Trump. Pretty much all the political conversations I hear between liberals and conservatives are acrimonious and combative. Make America Relate Again is based on the premise that if we can communicate respectfully with people whose viewpoints frustrate, enrage, or sadden us, we can cultivate more compassion in this sorely-divided country of ours. And if we stoke the fire of that compassion, we can work together to create positive change. Samia managed to put the humanity back into politics for me. I am impressed and astonished that she had the reserves of compassion and empathy to engage wholeheartedly in this way for two entire seasons. I find her to be brave in a way that I am lacking, and this had me tuning in.
Now in 2019, lucky for us, she’ll be applying those skills to a new podcast called Future Love, one about polyamory and unconventional relationships and and sex and love, in which she aims to help people have more authentic, passionate, longer-lasting romances by forgoing the conventional rules, and instead, writing their own.
To be apprised when her new podcast launches, and for all things Samia, including her articles about polyamory for Huff Post and Refinery 29, point yourself to samiamounts.com, and sign up for her mailing list!
Since our episode was recorded in my room, you’ll get a little local color from the Symphony Orchestra of Bushwick… but when you hear the crackling sounds of a Yule Log, that’s Samia, vaping.
In this first part of our episode, we discuss growing up as a horny little beast on a military base, playing lumberjack, dry-humping girls at 8, coming out as bi at 14, the year of the purge, a play I was in called An American Family Takes a Lover, Sex at Dawn, my new fashion friend, ordering food while fucking, Samia’s night with her new 48 year-old lover — we call him “Wild Man,” being multi-orgasmic, and cultivating lifelong sexy relationships. We cover a lot of ground!
To listen to the second part of my conversation with Samia, which will be released next Friday as episode 60, in which she tells me the most epic love story of her life, and the most epic friend-love story of her life, become a patron of the horizontal arts!
Patreon is the love child of crowd-funding and a subscription service. As a $5 month patron, you’ll get a special RSS feed that you can add to your podcast player, and it gives you exclusive access to all the episodes, every part two, going back to the beginning. I’ve made a little video tutorial for it, in case the RSS is confusing. It’s available on my Patreon page. (See what I did there?)
For more horizontality, you can receive my words in your inbox once a week(ish). I call them missives, and they are full of my personal writing, bits of the show notes for each episode with links to the whole shebang, invitations to my live events, and horizontal photos, often in unexpected places. Sign up for all that goodness on horizontalwithlila.com and add lila@horizontalwithlila.com to your address book, because email servers are frustrating and strange and sometimes treat my email like a message Mr. Jim Carlos who misspells your name as well as several third grade words while asking you to wire money — which I’m pretty sure is not something that people do anymore. Please rescue my thoughtful, well-crafted emails from the depths of folders like “Spam” and “Promotions” and “Updates.” Thank you.
And now, come lie down with us.
horizontal with Samia Mounts in my bed in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
Links to Things:
Become a patron of the horizontal arts to listen to part two!
Samia’s website, for all things Samia (including her articles about polyamory): samiamounts.com
Make America Relate Again – Samia’s first podcast, in which she has respectful political conversations with women who voted for Donald Trump.
Brene Brown’s TED talk on shame
Sex at Dawn, the book Samia is reading right now, and the rebuttal book, Sex at Dusk
Samia loves my email missives. You might, too.
Dan Savage’s rule, “fuck first.”
Kenneth Play, sex coach, Lila’s housemate, who has a perfectly-curated at-home date m.o. (as you might expect from a “sex hacker”)
The first book that sent Lila down the yellow brick road of a sex-positive lifestyle was Arousal: the secret logic of sexual fantasies
The second was Sex at Dawn. The third, mating in captivity.
More Than Two, one of the most useful and utilized handbooks on nonmonogamous relationships.
The Multi-orgasmic Man, a book that teaches penis-owners how to recycle their orgasmic energy, Taoist style.
The Magic Wand, formerly known as the Hitachi Magic Wand, a back massager that has long been repurposed as a vibrator. Considered by many to be the gold standard. Madison Young used one in her Reveal All Fear Nothing performance.
*** When you purchase through these links, horizontal gets a little kickback! This is another way you can be a patron of the horizontal arts!
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to this website or my Patreon!):
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[7:07] Lila is high.
Samia: This is the first recorded evidence of the fact that I am nearly always the devil on everyone’s shoulder.
[8:54] The snoring of Lila’s ex, and her solution.
[10:38] Sexy role-playing games at the beginning of Samia’s sexual life.
Samia: I would say the beginning of my sexual life was probably when I was about 8 years old, and I became obsessed with genitalia and breasts, and got— I ringlead all my little girlfriends into playing like, sexy role-playing games with me. So like—
Lila: (giggles) Awesome. What did you play?
Samia: Well, like, we’d play like lumberjack, where like I’d take my shirt off and pretend I was like chopping trees and like, the, other girl would come with like pancakes and li—
Lila: You got— wait wai wait a minute, you’re telling me that you got your little girlfriends to serve you pancakes.
Samia: Yes!
Lila: When you took your shirt off.
Samia: While I chopped imaginary trees in my bedroom. Yeah, absolutely. We would kiss—
Lila: Where did the pancakes come from?
Samia: They weren’t real pancakes.
Lila: Oh, okay, okay.
Samia: We were pretending.
Lila: Okayokay.
Samia: We didn’t even have a plate, like we’re not doing (Lila laughs) theatre here.
[11:38] Samia on getting caught by her mom.
Samia: My mom did catch me once though. I h— I had one friend who was like, as into these sex games as I was and— (chuckles) her name was Katherine— she was 6 years old, I was 8 years old. And, we like, one time, got s— naked — we were having a sleepover sleeping in my bed and we got naked, and she climbed on top of me and she was riding me.
Lila: Whoaaa!
Samia: I have vivid memories of this. […] I was 8, she was 6, we were both willing participants— it did not traumatize either of us. But my parents walking in did! (both laugh) They did not know what to make of that. They were all, “What? What?” And it still surprises me to this day that they were shocked when I came out as bi at 14. Like, wh— really guys, you’re surprised? You literally walked in on me having sex with a girl when I was 8, so. Um! (laughs)
Lila: And what was their response to that?
[…]
Samia: They started screaming, and I think like the next day or a few days later, my mom tried to have a conversation with me about sex.
Lila: What do you mean, “tried”?
Samia: She was really really awkward about it. It did not work out. She was like, “So honey… do you like to kiss your friends?”
[13:42] Samia’s parents never gave her the sex talk.
Samia: My parents never had, like, the sex conversation really with me, like, they never tal— taught me anything— I was on my own. I figured shit out for myself. And, it wasn’t that hard to figure out, luckily.
Lila: (somewhat dubiously) It wasn’t?
Samia: Nah— it’s— there’s information out there to be found. I mean I definitely didn’t get my shit together until a few years ago—
Lila: Well but— where did—
Samia: Or like, now, currently. (Lila laughs) But, I figured it out eventually. (laughs)
[14:14] Samia’s awareness of her sexual desires for men and women from a very young age.
[14:25] Samia on coming out as bi.
Samia: I— yeah, came out as bi at 14 annnd, yeah, it tha— that was never hard for me. I grew up in a military base, and I really liked being different. So the more different I could be, the more I was like, chillin’ with myself. So I never had— I didn’t have much support for any of this, but I also never had problems expressing it.
And yet, she also cares very much, about lots of things that matter.
[14:48] Lila marvels at Samia’s self-possession.
Lila: Well, what brought you to that self-possession, that you could do your own thing, be different, and be like, “Yeah, I don’t care what you think about it. I’m doing meee.”
Samia: I think that it was a combination of things. I definitely had a mother who wanted me to think for myself, and she encouraged that, and like, kind of created a monster. […] She had me reading by the time I was like, 4 years old. And um, I love to read and soak up information. So I was— and I grew up in a foreign country, so all sorts of shit was li— I was getting exposed to a lot of stuff.
Lila: And you grew up in Korea?
Samia: Uhhuh. And then also on top of that: I’m going to school on this military base, where like they make everything really mediocre, ‘cause they’ve got kids coming in from all over the place, and they have to make an education that works for everybody, and just— I was a year ahead in school. I was like, a lot smarter than most of the other people who were around me, and, I was really talented, and I think I just sort of like, had a sense that I was important and special. My mom always told me that I was important and special too. So like, I think it’s a combination of things. It was a combination of like, getting fed these messages from my mother, but also being in a community that really was pretty medium, and being somebody who wasn’t medium.
[16:14]
Lila: Okay so, little Samia is a bit of a renegade, (Samia cackles) a bit of a rebel on this military base in Korea, and she is dry-humping girls, and kissing girls.
Samia: Mmhm. Didn’t last very long, it was only that one year — or maybe it was 8 and 9 — but once I was 10, that was all over. We moved to Los Angeles. I got super chubby and acne’d and awkward at age 10/11. (laughs lightly) And then we moved back to Korea when I was in the middle of my 8th grade year. And I was still awkward-looking for a really long time. I didn’t get cute until much later. Much later. So then like, I was still this horny little beast but— I was— body image issues came into play when I was a teenager and didn’t go away until my late 20s. So that put a damper on things (laughs) sexually. But for the last 9 years I’ve been like, “Whoo!” So happy.
[17:20] Did Samia have any trouble coming to see herself as desirable?
[18:42]
Samia: Once I got my body to a, like, really fit, healthy place, the attention was nuts, and, I immediately felt like I was worth it. (both laugh) I was like All you bitches would’ve wanted me and LOVED to fuck me before, if you had just known and given me a fucking chance, you would’ve loved it, I know you would’ve, but you’re here now, and fuck, I’ll fuck you. I’m happy with this. You have— abs, and you look great. Let’s do this. And I started getting attention from all these, boys, I’d never gotten attention from before. (Lila mm’s) I’d always gotten attention from attractive women, but I’d never gotten a lot of attention from like, really physically attractive men. And that started happening and it was just insane!
[19:26]
Samia: At the time I was dating this guy, who was like, s— you know, like, significantly older than me — I was 26, he was 39 when we started dating — and, he was not like, a super conventionally-attractive guy. Really talented guy, really smart. But he also just didn’t appreciate me that much and he took me for granted and he didn’t have as high of a sex drive as I did, so I was always unsatisfied, and while I was with him I lost all this weight, I got really really hot, I started getting all this attention, (laughing) I, forced him to open up our relationship, (Lila mm’s) ‘cause I was not happy with our sex life. I started fucking models, and (cracking up) like, it changed everything. I never went back, oh my gosh! And I’m at the point now where I’m like, you just have to be so exceptional for me to— deal with you. You have to be really really great. And I look for red flags, so religiously.
[20:20] Hire fast, fire fast.
[20:54] Samia tells a tale about the boy she’s been dating long-distance, Korea to Newark, and why they didn’t see each other on the night that we recorded.
[24:53] The conclusion of this tale.
Samia: So I told him he was behaving like a child and I made other plans. […] Year of the purge— this is the year of the purge, by the way.
[25:10] Because I said, it’s not considerate or respectful to ask me to remain committed to plans that you are not committed to. And also — I didn’t even call him out on this — but he basically said that money is more important to him than me. And, I am so not down with that attitude! I love money, believe me, but money is stupid and invented, give me a fuckin’ break. It should never be more important that spending a time with a person you love. Especially somebody you don’t get to see that often. Please. It’s just fucked-up values; I don’t have time for it. So that’s why we’re here this evening. (Lila mm’s) And and, believe me, when I texted you that, I was joyful. I was so happy. Because like, I just got released from something. And I could tell something was weird in this relationship. And he showed his ass. And it was easy, and I could just let him go. Boom, bye!
Lila: Yeah what I really don’t like about it, is, he did something wrong, he did something that was offensive to you. You— told him. And he said, “Well I don’t like the way that you’re speaking to me because… you’re offending me!”
Samia: Yeah. He tried to turn it around on me.
Lila: And that’s abusive patterning.
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: Right, where the person— what they’re accused of, they accuse you first—
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: — or they turn it around on you.
Samia: Yeah. That’s totally true.
Lila: And that’s ugly, scary shit.
Samia: I do not have time for it; it does not not work for me.
Lila: I love how you just put your foot down.
[26:38] Lila on An American Family Takes a Lover
Lila: Once I did this show — it was um, called […] An American Family Takes a Lover.
Samia: (giggles) I like that!
Lila: And it was by Amina Henry, and really really really really really dark, dark dark dark comedy. So I was the wife of this couple— they go to the grocery store, they take the cashier, a young black woman, home with them, kidnap her, and make her their modern-day slave.
AN AMERICAN FAMILY TAKES A LOVER — “An American Family Takes a Lover” by Amina Henry peeks into a household comprised of an upscale American couple and their “other person,” a young Black woman who is their slave. It’s an absurd parable that explores The Stockholm Syndrome through a sexual and racial lens. Theater for the New City, 155 First Ave., will present The Cell Theatre Company production of the play November 7 to 17. It’s a premiere run, directed by Kira Simring. The “other person” is sent out to feed the dogs. Center: Tiffany Greene. Left: Lila Donnolo. Right: Bob Jaffe. Photo by Jonathan Slaff.
Samia: That is so fucked-up!
Lila: It is so so so so so so, so so so so, so fucked up.
Samia: Jesus hell!
Lila: And so my character was emotionally, intellectually, sexually, physically, abusive.
Samia: Uhf, that must be hard to play.
Lila: It was, it was really, really hard.
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: I, I, for the first several rehearsals it was really hard for me to wrap my, my mouth around the words.
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: To just, say the words.
Samia: I can imagine it would be hard— to—
Lila: And I had to, I had to stylize it to, to a cart—oonish degree, to be able to, to say the kind of words, and then I, then I took it back to a kind of Noel Coward kind of a, sort of thing.
Samia: I know what you mean, yeah.
Lila: You know? But like, I had to (whooshing sound) take it waaay out there—
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: And then, and then brought it back a little bit, but, (sigh) it was still very very stylized, and that’s how I could do it, and, my God, the woman playing that role… Fffffffwhoo, Tiffany, she was struggling because, what a position to be put in as an actress, as a young black actress. So intense.
Samia: I think about that a lot— every time I see a movie that’s about slavery or atrocities of any kind, and you’ve got— that are directed at a particular, you know, ethnic group, and you’ve got actors of that ethnic group, playing out the stories like— part of me thinks it’s reliving the trauma, and I know it’s important: tell the story so that people will see the truth and care, (Lila mmhm’s) so we can’t not tell them, but at the same time, I want to see more stories of the world that we want to create. I don’t see enough of that. And I think that’s something that I’m leaning towards in my artistic pursuits.
Lila: Mmm… One of the things that was really beautiful to me was it was the first time in my life, that I would go out with a diverse group of people — ‘cause we’d all go out after the show, after every show — and talk about race. (Samia mm’s) And I hadn’t done that….. I hadn’t done that!
Samia: Wow.
Lila: I just hadn’t really ever done that.
Samia: How old were you when you were doing this show?
Lila: I think I was… 29, 30… And, I remember, Lori, one of, the friends of the playwright. She was talking about… dating, and she was like, “Yeah, anybody does something out of line like that, I’m like (clicks teeth) ‘I don’t deal with that. That’s some silly shit.’”
Samia: Yup.
Lila: That’s some silly shit. And what you were talking about just reminded me of her going, “That’s some silly shit,” and then, for years I’ve heard her voice, in my head — I don’t always listen to it — I want to; I love your hard line, your hard no’s like, “Nope. Not gonna do it!”
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: Because that’s what she was doing, she was like, “That’s some silly shit. Nn-nn.”
Samia: I swear to God, I love, I love black women; I think black women are so amazing. All of my best friends, basically my entire life have been black women, and I think, a lot of, this, kind of attitude is, has come from those relationships. I remember when I was in high school, my best friend Marsha — we were both sort of like, heavier girls — and she put on a pair of new jeans, and she asked me if it made— if they made her butt look big. And so I said the stock response, like, no no no, it looks great, and she went, “Dammit! I wanted it to look big!” (Lila laughs) And I was like, WHOA! You— WHOA!!
Lila: She wanted it to— yahh!
Samia: That was my first lesson in body-positivity.
body-positivity (noun) = a movement that celebrates all body shapes and sizes as well as the changes a body undergoes throughout time. Prioritizing self-acceptance, this point of view affirms the inherent worthiness of all bodies, regardless of their visual forms, and particularly focuses on reclaiming a celebration of fat bodies.
[31:04] Samia on her identity as Arab / white.
Samia: My mother tried to pound it into my head, all growing up that I was white. She was Jordanian. Um, my dad is white. And my mother was running from her culture, trying to get as far away from it as she could, she did not want my sister and I to think of ourselves as Arabs, because Arabic culture was extremely re— suppressive for her— is that the right word? Repressive? I dunno.
Lila: Well.
Samia: They, they, they were—
Lila: It probably repressed and suppressed her.
Samia: Yeah. They, they were not cool—
Lila: And also, she must have feared… for… girl children. Right?
Samia: You know, in my mom’s family, a lot of the young women still live at home until they get married. And, it’s preferable to marry another Arab; it’s preferable to marry within the family, like a cousin if you can, and, it’s also insular—
Lila: That still happens!
Samia: Mmhm. Oh yeah. And—
Lila: Wow.
Samia: Right, right here in (putting on an accent) Yonkers, New Yawk. And my—
Lila: Just just, direct cousins, first cousins?
Samia: First cousins, for sure. My mother married— she was the only one of her siblings to marry outside of the family, annd, was almost a black sheep for it, for marrying a, a white American guy. […] Yeah, she didn’t want us to think of ourselves as Arab, so, but, at the same time, she wanted us to think of ourselves as exceptional and different. So, I quickly, latched on to not being white, because I saw a lotta white people, around me, all the time, and they were pretty basic. Annd, I don’t know if you’ve ever been on a military base or in a military community, but they are Christian, they are conservative, and, they don’t make any sense to me, and they never did. I never fit in. So I was, I’ve always been like, “No no no, I’m Arabic. I’m Middle Eastern, bitches. Whoo!” Don’t know a, a lick of the language, except for a string of curse words that my mother would say when she didn’t want us to know what she was saying, that’s when we were— making her mad. Uhm, and uh, like, of course I love the food, but like, the culture, is… mph. There’s lovely parts of it— it’s very family-oriented. I’m not very family-oriented, I don’t get it, I don’t get living in an insular community, where the only thing that ties you is blood. I’m just kinda like, not that into the whole shebang. So.
Lila: But it feels important to identify yourself in this way, even though it’s a culture, that you don’t really wanna, step into, or—
Samia: Doesn’t that make no sense? Isn’t that incredible? (laughs lightly)
Lila: Nnn— no, it makes sense to m— you know my mom’s Brazilian, right?
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: And, Iiii, find the machismo, not doing what you say you’re gonna do, you know, like, warm to people’s faces, to everybody, but not necessarily reliable, or, responsible— (Samia hm’s) Mm— respecting your sisters, and your mother, and your grandmother to a great degree and yet, treating, women as disposable, when you fool around with them— there’s a lot of things about that culture that I…. really—
Samia: I mean.
Lila: — that repel me, you know, and—
Samia: A lot of American men treat women as disposable when they fool around with them to. But that all goes back to the fucked up way our society deals with sex and relationships.
Lila: Yyeeah, but it, there’s something different about it and I think it might be the hyposcrisy that I see inherent in … treating your sister with such respect—
Samia: Right.
Lila: — and then her friend with such disrespect.
Samia: Yeah yeah. Yeah.
Lila: Because that’s somebody else’s— sister— where’s the disconnect, there? I just don’t.
Samia: Yeah it’s fucked up. It’s, it’s that whole like, “Me and my tribe,”
Lila: Tribalism.
Samia: Are important, and none of the rest of you matter.
Lila: Yeah.
Samia: And that’s, that’s what’s gotten us into this fuckin’ cesspool of— nightmare politics we’re in right now.
Lila: It’s probably the cause of most of the ills.
Samia: It is uh yeah, I think it is. I think it goes back to, those exact kind, tribalism—
Lila: And yet it feels so—
Samia: The patriarchy is part of tribalism. Lila: — good to be a part —
Lila: — of a tribe.
Samia: (unconvinced) Enh!
Lila: To have a community, to be accepted, to be cared-for—
Samia: You can be a part of a community without being xenophobic.
Lila: Yes of course.
Samia: You know. You can be a part of a community that supports and uplifts other communities, and intersects, and loves and, recognizes the inherent value in all human beings— it’s not that hard to do, we’re just not doing it.
[36:04] Samia on fixing all the problems in the world literally tomorrow.
[37:04] Lila takes issue with calling people “basic.”
[28:36] Samia takes issue with people’s addiction to the fantasy of wealth and power.
[41:29] Sexy book club picks.
Samia: I think that Sex at Dawn is hitting on shit that’s been like— I’ve felt instinctually my entire fucking life. And, I think a lot of other people have too, and I just— it all makes sense.
Lila: Well it’s one of the books that sent me down the yellow brick road, you know?
Samia: Oh yeah?
Lila: Yeah. First I read Arousal: the secret logic of sexual fantasies—
Samia: Mm! I haven’t read that.
Lila: Definitely do. Then Sex at Dawn, then mating in captivity.
[42:00] Where does Lila fall on the mono/poly spectrum? [SEE CHART FOR PLETHORA OF OPTIONS]
A nonmonogamy map. Courtesy of Franklin Veaux, co-author of More Than Two.
Samia: But you’re monogamous. Or you like to be monogamous. Or is that something that you’re thinking about these days?
Lila: I’ve been thinking about it for, a long long time. I— don’t know that I am monogamous.
Samia: Oooooooooooo! Tell me more!
Lila: But I don’t know that I’m polyamorous either.
Samia: Hm. There’s a lot of grey area in there.
Lila: Definitely. I have never been, in love with more than one person at a time. Sexually, romantically. Mmm, and, I think it’s possible. But it hasn’t happened yet. (Samia hm’s) So here’s an interesting thing. I am on Tinder, I’m on okcupid, I’m— and I’m on Hinge, and I’m— and I haven’t met anybody on those in in a very long time, ‘cause I (laughing) there’s nobody that I want to meet—
Samia: Yeah, I know what you mean.
Lila: That’s not true, that’s not true. Actually I just met somebody from Tinder, but he’s a polyamorous man in a long-term marriage—
Samia: Ah.
Lila: — and I told him, that that doesn’t interest me, that I’m really not looking for that.
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: But he’s also an extremely fashionable man and I said, “You know, but if you wanna hang out and be fashionable together, I would really love that.” (Samia trills) And we did! We hung out last week and we were fashionable together, and tomorrow night, we’re gonna hang out, and be fashionable together and drink mezcal.
Samia: That’s really cute.
Lila: And I am so excited to have a fashion friend!
Samia: Aww!
Lila: Who wants to talk about fashion and business and and, the podcast, and j— so, yeah. I’m really excited.
Samia: I love that!
Lila: Yeah so I’m, I’m very excited about my new friend. (laughs) He’s uh, @theessentialman, that’s his uh—
Samia: Wonderful.
Lila: And he teaches men, particularly, men of color and many Asian men, about style.
Samia: Huh! So he’s a stylist. Lila: He’s a personal stylist.
Lila: And a blogger. Yeah.
Samia: That’s great.
Lila: I know!
Samia: He’s straight?
Lila: Yes!
Samia: He’s a, he’s a jackpot! See I would, I would be interested—
Lila: So this is my new friend.
[43:51] Samia on her ideal lovers.
Samia: — in a relationship with a man like that. Like, I love men who are in stable marriages, because that means I don’t have to see them that often. It’s great.
Lila: But I— (Samia laughs) if I want to see somebody, I want to see them often.
Samia: I don’t have time. That’s what it comes down to.
Lila: I hear you.
Samia: I don’t think you really do, either. (laughs)
Lila: Time? Have time?
Samia: (cracking up) Yeahaha.
Lila: It’s very—
Samia: I see how you hustle, girl.
Lila: Samia. It’s very possible that I continue to choose men who are mostly unavailable to me because I never have to make too much room in my life for them.
Samia: I mean! (Lila laughs) I, you know, I suspected I was doing that for a long time before, before I began to own it. And I— and I can’t tell you for sure if I was doing it on purpose, but I can tell you that now, that I am fully owning, I’m a busy fucking woman, I don’t have that much time for dating.
Lila: Yeah.
You tell ’em, Samia!
Samia: I want my dating to be chill, I want it to be passionate, I want you to fuck me, (Lila mm’s) and I want you to be nice to me, and that is literally all I ask, and if I really really like you, like if I’m falling in love with you, I wanna see you once a week. That’s all I got!
Lila: Oh, you’re so clear, I love it!
Samia: It’s, that’s— that’s asking a lot, to do once a week.
Lila: Of you?
Samia: Yeah! Because I’ve got friends I need to see, too, and I’ve got multiple—
Lila: No, absolutely! Samia: — productions I’m involved in,
Samia: And work, and!
Lila: Right.
Samia: It’s nuts! So.
Lila: Right, and, and and, I’ve got a podcast and a community life and a community role, and, my teaching and my writing and—
[47:25] In which Samia gives Lila a pep talk.
Samia: You are so busy!
Lila: Right.
Samia: You travel a lot.
Lila: I travel a lot.
Samia: You’re so fuckin’ productive— Jesus!
Lila: Oh my God, thank you for thinking that of me— I—
Samia: It’s the truth!
Lila: I often think I am not productive.
Samia: I know you think that— it’s so funny, you say that all the time (Lila laughs) but if you could just for a second, like, look at yourself as another person might see you.
Lila: Mmm.
Samia: You’re fuckin’ making headpieces, you’re going to Burning Man, you’re writing these incredible emails that—
Headpieces: visual aid.
Lila: Mmmmm!
Samia: — you send out that move people. Like I fuckin’ cried on the subway reading one of your emails— recently! (Lila mewls) And like, you’re you’re, you’re making this podcast every single week, you’re, you’re teaching yoga classes— you teach beautiful yoga classes, Lila, I love your yoga classes! You’re giving massages—
[Note: Samia was referring to this one, and this one. You too can receive said emails… Sign on up, bb.]
Lila: I know, that’s how we fell in love.
Samia: You, yeah! You’re doing— you’re, you know, performing at sex parties, you’re doing all this shit! (Lila laughs) It’s incredible! And: you think you’re not productive. Please.
Lila: (somewhat sadly) Yeah.
Samia: And you don’t have time to see somebody more than once or twice a week, so don’t even pretend.
Lila: (gasps) We— oh, oh, f— (Samia giggles delightedly) Well, I mean (flubbers) hang on!
Samia: I’m just saying.
Lila: Three times? Three or four times, would be amazing.
Samia: That’s a lot. That’s so much! That’s so many hours.
Lila: But n— what if it doesn’t have to be so many hours?
Samia: Like a little half-hour coffee date?
Lila: What if?
Samia: Touch base.
Lila: What if you have dinner and you have sex and it’s 2 ½ hours and they’re— then they go?
Samia: That was quick dinner and sex, I don’t, I dunno (dissolves into a grumble)
Lila: It, it was.
Samia: (laughs heartily) ‘Cause dinner in New York is two hours, so—
Lila: Well, what if you don’t go out? To have dinner.
[46:50] Samia’s favorite version of dinner & sex.
Samia: Oh, oh you know what I— my favorite thing is like, you, you meet at one of your places, and you start having sex, and then while you’re having sex, over the course of the next 45 minutes to an hour, you eventually order food—
Lila: Ach!
Samia: And then wait for it to come, continue fucking—
Lila: Yes!
Samia: And then when it comes, you eat, and then that’s the end of the date.
Lila: Oh it’s so good. It’s so good. It’s so good. And then you’re also following Dan Savage’s rule, “fuck first.”
Samia: Absolutely. Always fuck first.
[47:18] Kenneth’s date-at-home m.o. and how Lila slid into his delicious appetizers followed by a fabulous meal on the one night Kenneth got stood up.
[48:54]
Samia: I enjoy men who, who create experiences I had a, I had this guy once, I went on a few dates with him, and he was so great. He looked like Thor, which was not a bad thing.
Lila: Mmmmmm.
Samia: And he would like, answer the door, with like no shirt on, and like, like a martial arts bandana around his head (Lila giggles) so like, he really looked like, like a Rambo type, like you’re like, “Whoa! HI!”
Lila: Hello!
Samia: We almost always just hung out at his place, ‘cause we both like to smoke weed, and, just chill, and I’d come over and he’d have a bottle of Ruinart Rosé champagne open— he’d have a platter of cut-up strawberries and watermelon, and grapes for me (Lila mm’s) and like everything would be pink to match the rosé, which was so cute—
Lila: Ohh! That is adorable!
Samia: It was so cute, from this like, big manly hunk of a man. Ooohh, I love that shit. I love it when they do that. It’s so nice. ‘Cause he created an experience for me.
Lila: An environment, yeah.
Samia: He curated an experience, and I felt so cared-for.
Lila: Right!
Samia: And it’s such a simple thing, to open a bottle of champagne and cut up some strawberries, but like—
Lila: It is.
Samia: It makes a difference.
Lila: And not a lot of people are doing it—
Samia: I know!
Lila: — so it makes an impression! As well as a difference.
Samia: I always find it’s the, it’s the grown men who are doing that, it’s like, men over 35— I used to think it was over 30, but the 30 to 35 range is disappointing—
Lila: They’re not doing so well right now.
Samia: Over 35—
Lila: They’re really disappointing me right now.
[50:12] Samia tells Lila a story about her new lover, Wild Man.
Samia: I had the best sex last night.
[51:58] How did they meet?
[52:21]
Samia: At that point I had just started being attracted to really manly men, for the first time ever. I was into androgynous people for— up until my early 30s.
Lila: Ohhhh!
Samia: And then I had like a— I had a hormone shift or something, where suddenly— I broke up with my boyfriend Dylan who I loved, partly because of this, because he was an androgynous, like gorgeous bisexual— pansexual man who, you know, was just really pretty and sort of slight and, that was what I’d always liked, and then, early 30s hit, suddenly, I liked big tall hairy, barrel-chested, masculine men. […] And I stopped being attracted to women as often. And I stopped dating women as much, after that hormone shift too. But I’m still attracted to women, and occasionally date and sleep with women, but. It’s been mostly men since that hormone shift.
Lila: Mostly, manly men.
Samia: Yeah. Mostly manly men.
Lila: Do you know the term Domly Doms?
Domly Doms (noun) = typically referring to a know-it-all Dominant male type in the BDSM with “credibility” and swagger to a cartoonish degree.
[53:59]
Samia: So in this musical we did together, he was playing a very angry, very scary, violent, dangerous man— and he’s playing my brother— And he— I find dangerous violent men in musicals super hot. (Lila laughs boisterously) Give me a Jekyll and Hyde— I wanna fuck Hyde. Okay.
Lila: Sweeney Todd.
Samia: Sweeney Todd I wanna fuck so bad. I love the musical theatre psychopaths. I don’t know why. (Lila laughs) I fucking love them; they’re so sexy to me. So he plays musical theatre psychopaths really well.
[1:00:36]
Samia: And we started making out on the couch and it was amazing right away! You can tell right away, with some people, like, as soon as you kiss them your stomach starts going crazy with the roller-coaster feeling.
Lila: Mmmmm.
Samia: That good roller-coaster feeling, you know. That means someone really turns you on. I don’t get that feeling, very often. There’s so few people who have made me feel that that way, where it comes in waves, and it’s just so easy, I was like, “Oh shit! OH SHIT! I’m gonna fuck him forEVER!” (Lila laughs heartily) And he seems to be perfectly in line with where I’m at as far as how I’m conducting my relationships. ‘Cause from my perspective— yes, this dude lives in New York and I live in Korea right now, and I’m planning on moving to L.A. in a couple of years. To me, that’s not an inhibition to us having, like, a wonderful, possibly life-long sexy relationship. Because, as long as we like fucking each other, we should just keep fucking each other when we can— when we can see each other. If it’s really good, we’ll visit each other. You know? Dude! This motherfucker was totally thinking l— thinking the same thing. ‘Cause last night he was talking about, “Maybe I should live in Korea.”
Lila: OHHhh!
Samia: And I said— and he would never come and live in Korea, ‘cause he totally doesn’t need to; he’s killing it over here. And I said, well you don’t have to live there, but you can definitely come visit. And like, based on how good last night was, I could see that fucking happening. And I’m gonna be back here, in like si— five, six months. I’ll always come back to New York for things. So I just see now, assuming he stays as chill as he has been — I’m always chill; I just want things to be fun and sexy and drama-free — (laughs) Uhhm! I think that we could fuck each other for the rest of our lives; I’d be really happy about that. I will fuck him for the rest of my life— it was so good. […] He just knew what to do! He just knew! He like, you know how some—
Lila: Well tell me more!
Samia: Alright. You know how a lot of younger men just wanna skip right to the fucking?
Lila: (unenthusiastically) Mmph.
Samia: And they don’t realize that a woman needs to be warmed up.
Lila: (unenthusiastically) Mmph.
Samia: This grown man, understood that a woman needs to be warmed up, and he like, I like it when they eat you like they’re starving and you’re the best food they’ve ever tasted. And I like it when they start with that, and then after they’ve made you come once or twice, just that way, then they’d start with the fingers, and they make you come once or twice that way.
Lila: (languidly) Mmm.
Samia: This is what this guy was doing. He was just giving me the full everything, and this was all on the couch.
[1:03:11] Samia and her wildly multi-orgasmic-ness.
[1:05:00] Samia & Lila on vibrators.
[1:05:10]
Samia: It doesn’t affect at all my ability to orgasm with a person, you know? With fingers, with a mouth, with a dick, with a dildo. When I just stick with the Hitachi Magic Wand over clothes, it’s such a different experience that they don’t even relate. So it doesn’t desensitize me. Which is the thing that I think people are afraid of with vibrators.
Hitachi Magic Wand (noun) = originally designed as a back massager, now considered the pre-eminent vibrator for external clitoral stimulation
Lila: But I think it does happen to some people.
Samia: Maybe; I’m not sure.
Lila: In the same way that the, the death grip, the death choke, that a lot of… boys developed, in order to, come really quickly and come with porn and—
death grip (noun) = the phenomenon in which a person with a penis becomes accustomed to masturbating with such an extremely tight hold on their member, that they often find themselves in the position of being unable to come when engaged with a mouth, a vagina, or even an anus, because it cannot provide the same pressure.
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: Then, it makes it— really hard for them.
Samia: I love those boys though. ‘Cause they can go forever! I really like men who find it hard to come. But stay hard. That’s my favorite.
Lila: Okay. Alright. Well. I understand your enjoyment of that.
Samia: I think that women should come a lot and men should only come a little.
Lila: Yes, or maybe not at all.
Samia: Or maybe not at all.
Lila: Maybe they can just, you know, recycle that, Taoist style.
Samia: I think that men who are good in bed almost always understand one simple principle, and share one simple quality.
Lila: She comes first.
Samia: The quality is she comes first, but also, the quality is, being turned-on by a woman coming. When a man is turned on by a woman cumming, they’re the best fucking lovers. They’re the best. Because, no matter what, there’s something that’s gonna entertain them. Like if they can’t get it up because they drink too much, they still love doing things to you ‘cause they’re turned on by it and maybe that’ll get them hard—
Lila: Haven’t you had the experience though, where, someone is so turned on by the fact that you come, and then it’s over!
Samia: Well that’s why you—
Lila: And you’re like, “I wanted to come aGAIN!!”
Samia: It’s it’s—
Lila: And I wanted you to fuck me, and why is it over already—
Samia: It’s really much better if they have trouble coming. (Lila guffaws)
[1:07:16] Samia on people in a relationship not putting any shackles on each other’s sexual autonomy.
[1:07:58] Lila on the sexiness of a long-distance relationship.
[1:08:40]
Lila: So he said, you know, “I’m in this long-distance relationship. And why do I keep doing this to myself? This is like, the third time.” And I said, “I know why you keep doing this to yourself. You do this because, nobody’s infringing too much on your autonomy. And, every time you see each other it’s a vacation. And it’s exciting. And, the time that you don’t see each other, you’re longing for each other, so you’ve built up all this juice, and then when you see each other it’s so sexy!”
Samia: Yes!
Lila: And I, I understand! And I, have, right now, the people that I am interested in— one of them is in Bali, one of them is in Austin, you know, they’re far away!
Samia: (overlapping, teasing) That’s why you wanna go to Bali!
Lila: No it isn’t, don’t! No no no no no no no no! He might not even be there! And, I’m not following him to Bali! I’m not—
Samia: No, of course you’re not.
Lila: I want you to know I’m not following him to Bali.
Samia: No of course you’re— it just happens to work into your plan for yourself, so—
Lila: It does. And I’ve wanted to go to Bali for a really long time. But uh, yeah, he might be in Bali, it’s possible.
Samia: That’d be cool.
Lila: And then one of them is… Peter, who… is here, sometimes, and, you know, traveling for work other times, and (big inhale) you know, just aborted, his baby so…
Samia: Oh hunny! Oh I read, I read your missive about that.
Lila: Yeah.
Samia: Thank you for sharing that story. How are you?
Lila: I miss him.
[1:10:10] Lila tells Samia the incomplete story of the abortion.
[Note: the complete story will be released in a few weeks, in the second part of her episode with Bevin, so stay tuned.]
Samia: Where is he?
Lila: But he wasn’t— I mean, we hadn’t spoken for six weeks before I found out, you know, so we weren’t… Here, ostensibly. Maybe in San Francisco, I don’t know. Maybe in Pennsylvania. He owns a, a string of shops across the U.S. and—
Samia: Oh, wow. So are you guys still… are you guys in touch?
Lila: Mm, except for the fact that he said he would pay for the abortion and I said well, if, you know, Medicaid doesn’t cover it, I will— I will take you up on that. I haven’t ha— no, we haven’t talked. I— called him the night before, and told him, and then asked him to check in on me on the day of the abortion, he texted me and then, he called me the next day, and I didn’t pick up, I don’t know why, I just didn’t pick up. And then I texted him a little bit later. And said I— you know, I’m at home now.
Samia: Why didn’t you pick up when he called?
Lila: (long pause, then softly) I don’t know.
Samia: I think there might be an interesting answer to that somewhere… I would’ve picked up… There must be more to it.
Lila: I was in the street. I was walking to the subway. (long pause)
Samia: You could have called him back instead of texting.
Lila: I could’ve called him back.
Samia: Why not? Why didn’t you? Is there something about this guy you didn’t want to be connected to in that moment? Or did you just not wanna… feel connected to him because of what you just had to deal with, without him actually there? Or some—
Lila: I— I think there is a little bit of . . . . . a little bit of resentment. A little bit. He was in San Francisco, though, when I called him. My appointment was the next day. I don’t think he would have flown back even if he had . . . . . more time. (Samia mm’s) I think he would’ve, he would’ve offered to come if he was here. But he wasn’t here.
Samia: Yeah yeah, well. Yeah.
Lila: And… why didn’t I pick up? (long pause) Maybe because, in the conversation that we had the night before, I asked him, you know, what happened… with us and, and he said he just wasn’t ready. He said, “I’m sorry, I know it’s lame; I’m just not ready.” (pause)
Samia: For what, exactly?
Lila: He, well— Samia: What did—
Samia: What were you asking for?
Lila: I didn’t ask for— anything—
Samia: Thisismypoint!
Lila: — specifically, and—
Samia: Exactly, they make assumptions!
Lila: And he said, that the way that we were going, the next thing would be … a serious relationship, and—
Samia: Ahhhohh.
Lila: — and, when he’s in a relationship like that, it’s like octopus tentacles wrapping around each other.
Samia: Uhhuh.
Lila: And he doesn’t… he is a monogamous person—
Samia: Ah.
Lila: And I said, well, is there a way for us to be intimate that isn’t octopus monogamy?
Samia: Yeaheheheheah, thank you!
octopus monogamy (noun) = a sexually and romantically exclusive relationship between two people, characterized by an intertwining of all aspects of their lives, in a way that resembles octopus tentacles wrapping around one another and suctioning on. [Lila’s term, inspired by Peter]
Lila: And he s—
Samia: (laughing) Octopus monogamy! There’s, there’s something in there, there’s like, there’s a, there’s a book in there, I think.
Lila: And he said, “I don’t know.” (beat) And he said, “I think you’re right; I think we probably can’t be friends.”
Samia: Fuck, man.
Lila: Annnd, maybe I didn’t pick up the phone because . . . that was heartbreaking.
Samia: (beat) Yeah.
Lila: And I was in a pretty, physically vulnerable-feeling state.
Samia: Yeah.
Lila: (pause) The— when you first asked, I— was trying to, get, to the, real answer, and one of the answers that came up was: Well I didn’t want to cry on the street. But I mean: I’ve cried on the street so many times.
Samia: I’ve been crying on the street like it’s my job lately. The last few months I’ve been crying on the street like, every day, it’s insane, it’s intense. I’ve been going through some real heavy shit with my longest love affair — who happens to live in Korea, so he’s nearby and things have not gone the way I expected them to this year. (Lila mm’s) I can understand crying on the street over heartbreak. (chuckles) Listening to all the songs. Or like, you’re just listening to an innocent Spotify playlist, and then a song comes on that punches you in the gut! You’re like, “Really?”
Lila: Mph!
Samia: Ugh! And then you start listening to it on repeat ‘cause it’s nailing your emotions, and then you’re crying more and you’re like, “Oh, goddammit, I’m on a city bus. Openly weeping.” (big sigh) I’m that girl… and when you’re a foreigner in Korea, that makes it even worse, because people are already looking at you.
Lila: Ohhh, my gosh.
Samia: Plus I dress like a freak. (laughs)
Lila: I can see the scene. (Samia laughs) I can see it.
Samia: It’s like: There’s nothing—
Lila: The city bus.
Samia: There’s nothing less conspicuous than a girl with hot pink hair, burgundy headphones, black and white striped sweater, crazy loud leggings, openly weeping (cracking up) on the bus, in a Korea— in Korea.
Lila: In Korea. (Samia cackles) I, I love it. It’s like the opening scene of your biopic.
Samia: (trills) Oh God I hope not! That’s pretty great. Actually, yeah, it probably should be.
Lila: (laughs, then falls silent for a pause) Why didn’t I pick up the phone? I wanted so much to— I hoped that. That this would bring us back together.
Samia: Ahh. Yes, you know, getting rid of unwanted fetuses usually has that effec— (laughing, can barely finish sentence) t.
Lila: Well, I, I mean—
Samia: I’m sorry!
Lila: Neither of us wanted this. Samia: I’m sorry.
Lila: This thing.
Samia: I’m sorry you had to go through that, baby.
Lila: But I don’t think, I don’t think it’s so ridiculous, that… I thought it might.
Samia: Well at the very least it should have connected you guys—
Lila: (overlapping) It’s a decision that—
Samia: — emotionally again.
Lila: — we both wanted to make— and experience, but I went through it with my friends, not with him. I went through it … with other people supporting me.
Samia: Yeh. Exactly. That’s kind of the thing. W— like, I have this, habit, this tendency, and I think you might share this with me, of, wanting the kind of support from a romantic partner that they can’t actually give me in that moment. And wanting it from them above all others, so desperately. Even though I know intellectually that they— they’re not even capable of giving me that. That’s why— I’m sad in the first place! Like, when somebody hurts me, my first instinct is to want to go to that same person for comfort, that makes no fucking sense.
59. I’m gonna fuck him forEVER: horizontal with a polyamorous podcaster of political proportions
Horizontal is a podcast of intimacies recorded while lying down. Think of it as consensual eavesdropping. Together, we’re making private conversations public, in order to dispel shame, diminish loneliness, and alchemize human connection. Brene Brown, the world-renowned researcher/storyteller and expert on vulnerability, shame, and courage, states that shame (in a petri dish) needs 3 things to survive: secrecy, silence, and judgement.
For full access to all the horizontal episodes going forward, including part two of my conversation with Samia, in which she tells me the story of the most epic love affair of her life (pretty juicy, I must say), become a patron of the horizontal arts!
