This is Wry.
53. sperm control: horizontal with a nonmonogamy consultant
Horizontal is a podcast about intimacy. It’s recorded while lying down, wearing robes, sharing a single pillow. I take you into my bed (or in the case of these episodes, recorded while I was on the road across America, someone else’s bed), and let your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.
Lila: Do you want children yourself?
Wry: NEver.
Lila: I don’t either.
Wry: I’m gonna get snipped soon. I’ve been thinkin’ about it for almost a decade.
Lila: Why now as opposed to earlier?
Wry: When I first looked into it, no doctor would snip me. Not in America anyway. Too young, at 24. And—
Lila: (overlapping “and”) You— they thought you were gonna change your mind; they didn’t wanna be responsible for that?
Wry: Right. They felt it was unethical. On a “do no harm” level. (Lila hm’s) And, I got more serious about it when I turned 30 … and at the time, I was stepping up more, as an educator and, for lack of a better term, talk show host, for various other—
Lila: (chuckle) Right?
Wry: — educators. With my Polytalks. And so I changed goals and, even though there are other methods of male birth control that are either currently on the market, or will be, in years to come, I see it as more of a socio-political move, and thus I want more visibility of it, so I’m trying to find the right doctor who will allow me to put it on video— for the whole process to be on video, including the consultations and, the conversations where they try to convince me not to do it. Possibly, talk me out of it. And all the way through the actual surgery, which is minimal, it’s a, it’s a very simple surgery. Usually in-office. And you go home. You don’t have to do a hospital stay. But finding that doctor has proven very difficult.
Lila: Mm, I can imagine.
Wry: And usually, it’s on the budget of some type of, documentarian, or reality TV, and they can afford the filming rights in L.A. — if it was in another city, it’d probably be cheap.
Lila: You could travel to do it.
Wry: I’ve thought about it. Yeah. It’s, a growing priority. I want to get this over with.
Lila: I like that you wanna demystify it. I also think it’s important for people to see the corresponding (sigh) Doctor trying to talk you out of what you decided you want to do with your body, from a penis-owner’s perspective.
Wry: Riiiiight, yeah, the opposite.
Lila: I don’t want to have a child, no I’m telling you I really know that I don’t wanna have any children… How do I convince you that I know what I want to do and not want to do with my body?
Wry: It’s so wild, the perception of it. Especially because, sperm production continues— so if there’s ever a powerful desire to undo it, it can be undone. You can restitch the tubes, for about 10,000 dollars, or you can just go in locally and extract the sperm. It’s not that big of a deal! But the medical profession treats it as a big, big deal.
Lila: Apparently the reversals don’t all work, from what I understand from—
Wry: That’s true. That’s true, but, I think, in the next few years, we’re gonna have trans folx able to carry a baby to term. And there’s all kinds of science at this point, that, can find a way. When you’re talking about reversals of vasectomies, you’re talking about micro-surgery to stitch together very tiny tubes so that you can still impregnate the natural way. It’s trying to go back to the way before it was cut. But what we’re not talking about is complete destruction of the reproductive organs themselves. You’re still producing sperm. (Lila mmhm’s) Easy to extract.
Lila: Maybe what it needs is a sexier name. Vasectomy just really doesn’t sound very— you know?
Wry: Neither does tubal ligation.
Lila: Ex— well it’s true; I don’t think that’s a good one either. (both laugh) But, you know, I dunno, “male birth control” sounds really good to me.
Wry: Yeah! The meth—
Lila: But except we can’t, we can’t really, if we’re with gender, that’s not so great, right.
Wry: Sperm birth control, perhaps?
Lila: Mm. Sperm control! (Wry mm’s) SPERM CONTROL. We’ve got it. We’ve got it. Sold. Millions. (giggles) Across, across America tomorrow.
Wry: There’s some—
Lila: Sperm, sperm control.
Wry: — method of sperm control, I believe originated in India and tested there over 10 years ago, that’s just now spreading worldwide.
Lila: I heard about it at the Cycles & Sex conference—
Wry: Yeah you just plug the tubes.
Lila: — the other day.
Wry: And then you unplug the tubes if you ever wanna reverse it. (Lila mmhm’s) ‘Cause they had the clips, was seen as a, a temporary method but those spermies are wily guys that get through there. There’s even, even stories of snipped tubes reconnecting themselves.
Lila: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatt?
Wry: So they started doing, uh, cauterizing of the tubes to prevent that.
Lila: (under her breath) Whoooaaa.
Wry: “Life, uh, finds a way.”
Horizontal is a podcast about intimacy. It’s recorded while lying down, wearing robes, sharing a single pillow. I take you into my bed (or in the case of these episodes, recorded while I was on the road across America, someone else’s bed), and let your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.
The goal is to make private conversations public, in order to dispel shame, diminish loneliness, and alchemize connection.
In this installment, I lie down with Wry of Wry Polytalks, a nonmonogamy consultant: a clear-talking, thoughtful advocate for alternative relationships and kinky stuff, an entertainer, a Dominant, a consent activist, public speaker, social justice warrior, and the host of many, many a panel.
Wry Polytalks are panel discussions with relationship experts that he moderates on a web of topics related to nonmonogamy. I got to see his showmanship in action when he hosted the Ethical Slut social at Hacienda Studio (twice!), and lead two such panels in our event space. His ringmasterishness sure can command a room.
He’s also passionately involved in the movement to destigmatize the conversation around mental health. As the daughter of a woman diagnosed with bipolar disorder who has been fighting for her health nearly all of my life, and as a person who experiences depression along with, or possibly caused by, undiagnosed Seasonal Affective Disorder, this advocacy is very dear to me.
Wry’s voice sounds like whiskey and a rec room with burgundy leather armchairs. I like it.
In this part of our conversation, we talk about playing 90210, internalized slut-shaming, labels, polyamory, relationship anarchy, sperm control, PREP, and how herpes is really not that big of a deal.
***
I want to let you know about a change that’s coming up. I have big big dreams, like making a pilot for a horizontal TV show (!), and I realize that I need more freedom to be able to achieve them. And that means finances.
I’m deeply committed to making this my career, and I’m still holding to my intention to bring you independent, uncensored, and ad-free radio.
The podcast doesn’t yet break even. My Patreon currently covers less than half of the monthly production expenses. And it’s time for my project to grow up. I need to experiment with different models of income. Going forward, the second part of my conversation with each guest will be gated, (in this case, it would mean that episode 54 with Wry would be gated) meaning roughly every other episode will be free, and every other episode will be paid. All episodes will always be available to patrons at a certain level and up, and they’ll be available for purchase individually as well.
If you enjoy lying down with us, and believe in my mission to spread intimacy across the globe, This is how you can make sure I continue to create independent, uncensored, ad-free radio. Become a patron of the horizontal arts. It’s a cross between a subscription service and crowd-funding for artistic patronage. You offer a monthly contribution, from $2 a month on up, and you get a level of special access to me and my work.
Since in the next few weeks, every other episode will be free, and every other episode will cost a small amount, Patronage will be the way to unlock all the gated episodes. And I just want to make one thing super clear: many friends have told me that they’ve been hesitant to become my patrons because they feel embarrassed to only be able to give $2/month. Oh My goodness, if everybody who loves the podcast or my writing became a patron at $2 a month, it would CHANGE MY LIFE. Every patron is so incredibly valuable to me, and the beauty of crowd funding is exactly this – that when many people give a little bit, it can add up to something really powerful, to something that supports me to fulfill my purpose.
Also, I send what I call “missives” to my email list once a week. It’s like lobbing a thousands messages in a bottle out to sea. I share my writing, resources from the episodes, saucy photos, and other miscellaneous bits of interest, like that time I was in Playboy … To receive all this goodness directly in your inbox, sign up on horizontalwithlila.com and add lila@horizontalwithlila.com to your address book, for good measure. We don’t want it getting lost in some “updates” tab or something, do we? Indeed no. No we do not.
And now, come lie down with us in L.A.
horizontal with Wry in Los Angeles, California, just before recording this episode.
Links to Things:
Patron of the horizontal arts!
nonmonogamyconsultant.com, Wry’s website for all things Wry (including a Wrybrary … get it?!)
The Fight Club soundtrack — music that, in part, inspired Wry’s move to L.A.
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to this website or my Patreon!):
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[6:05] Lila sets the scene, and dubs Wry’s apartment a “horror boudoir.” He may or may not have liked that description.
This was Wry, too.
[7:29] What did Wry learn about sex, growing up Catholic?
Wry: That it was very bad; everything about it was bad. Unless you were married, and then, it was good. Masturbation was a great sin, worse than cheating.
Lila: Worse than cheating?
Wry: Uhhuh. That’s what I was told.
Lila: (long pause) Jeez. That seems egregious… Annd, you confessed?
Wry: Yeah. Pretty regularly. And then I’d feel a lot better. (pause) I still refer to a lot of emotional processing as confession, with penance and absolution. I almost became a priest… so it’s very much ingrained into me.
Lila: My dad, too. When you say almost, how almost? He had gone to seminary, completed all his studies, and then decided not to be ordained.
Wry: He got a lot farther than I did. I uh, I was 18, and the decision between university or seminary was pretty difficult. But university won. And sex was the main reason it won.
[9:16] Wry’s first memory of engaging with another human being sexually.
Wry: Six year old, me and my best friend would ride our bikes across the neighborhood, to meet up with two little sisters — they were 5 and 6 years old — and then, we would all get shirtless and play “90210.” (Lila gasps) Which meant making out with each other, and then swapping and making out with each other.
Lila: (giggling) Wow!
Wry: And then she stuck her tongue in my mouth, and that was really weird and gross … and she says, “Well that’s how they do it on 90210!” So I said, “Okay!” and we continued.
Lila: (giggles) Was the sensation just, wrong, just slimy and…
Wry: I didn’t understand why she did it. I literally just said, “Why did you do that?”
Lila: I still don’t understand, in a way.
[10:07] Lila’s tongue-kissing limitations.
Lila: I like really dry, sensual kisses, until you’re super aroused and then, you know, pretty much anything goes. But when people come at me with a tongue. Or just, just, nnlehhh (makes the sound of someone coming at her with their tongue first) I’m not— it’s such a turn-off for me! And also really wet l— I had a partner who, for a while would lick their lips before every time they kissed me and I was like, (whispers) “Please don’t— do that! Whywhy why are you doing that?” And, they thought it would be nicer for me! (Wry hm’s) They didn’t want to kiss me with dry lips, and I was like, “Oh no no please, that, that would be great!”
[10:58] What else was involved in playing 90210?
Wry: Part of it was an inside joke among all of us because, the babysitter would be distracted watching 90210 while we were playing 90210.
[11:30]
Wry: It was just an elaborate excuse to kiss each other, and, you know, lay on top of each other shirtless in their little beds.
Lila: (titters) Did you have a sense that that was something that you shouldn’t talk about, that you shouldn’t be doing, and shouldn’t tell?
Wry: I cried about it for years, full of guilt. I thought it was a great sin, and that I was gonna go to hell for it. (Lila sighs) ‘Til I was about, maybe 9 years old.
Lila: What happened at 9?
Wry: I just realized it wasn’t so bad. That God would probably forgive me. […]
He has the same haircut today!!
Lila: When you thought, at 9, that God would probably forgive you, that was a shift in your image of what a higher power would… would do, right? H— how, how the response would be to your sexuality.
Wry: I think I just realized how much worse everyone else was. It was always in relation to others, not so much, how good or bad I’ve been— it was more like, I’m not so bad compared to everyone else! A bit of “the sin of everyone is the sin of noone.”
Lila: Hm. How’d you know? About the others?
Wry: Well certainly, a lot of exposure from TV, but also, just, witnessing public displays of affection.
Lila: Were your parents affectionate with each other?
Wry: Sometimes. Mostly fighting.
Lila: Did they stay together?
Wry: Yeah, up until recently…
Lila: Was it religion that kept them?
Wry: I think that was a big factor. I think also, a certain sense of integrity, that, they said it was going to be forever. So they wanted to try to make that happen. (Lila mmhm’s) There’s something really dark about “forever.” Literally death. That’s the breakup point; that’s when you’re no longer together, is when one of you dies.
Lila: Right. And how can that be the arbiter of what is a good relationship?
Wry: Right!
Lila: That it ends in death. THEN you really did it!
Wry: You made it to death; there’s the finish line! Here’s your reward. (Lila chortles sympathetically) Now you’re lonely.
Lila: I’ve used that idea as … a way to, sort of, carpe diem myself, remind myself that everything ends — every relationship ends — whether it ends in one person’s death, or, it ends some other way, it still ends—
Wry: Right?
Lila: So… why not make it something that, is nourishing, and when it’s no longer nourishing, release?
Wry: That’s one of the concepts I like about poly transition. Yes sometimes you do have to break up and never speak to each other again, but other times you just need to change the expectations and change the way that you interact, and a new relationship is born or a variation on it. And you still have that sense of family, and closeness and caring, and love — maybe a different type of love than the … romance and lust that were there before.
poly transition (noun) = the concept that, in polyamorous relationships, the end of a romantic or sexual partnership / liaison doesn’t have to signal the end of a connection between the people involved — instead it can be a time to transition to a relationship with different parameters, ways of interacting, and expectations.
[15:54] When did sexuality become a positive influence in Wry’s life?
Wry: It’s hard to put a pinpoint on it, because… I think, up until, even recent years, there was a lot of internalized slut-shaming, and a lot of leftover programming, to de-program.
Lila: How does that even happen?
Wry: Overcompensation helps. (Lila chuckles) 2009 was a wild year. That really was swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction. […] I still dabble in it. I really value lasting relationships and I really value, sexual adventures. I haven’t grown out of it by any means, but the frequency is not quite as pervasive.
Lila: When you talk about deprogramming, and you said overcompensation helps, is it almost a … cognitive behavioral therapy kind of way, where you, you do the act until you no longer feel (chuckles) bad about it?
Wry: It definitely worked with masturbation. Being raised in an environment that really discouraged masturbation, for a great variety of reasons: it was a silly waste of time, it was a sin, it was stupid, it was … bad for you. And then, really holding off. I don’t think I— fully masturbated with the conscious intent of orgasm ‘til I was 16. Even though I really wanted to at 12. And between 16 and 20, there was a helluva lot of masturbation! And somethin’ that felt that good, and had zero consequences … was … too powerful to ignore, and the old programming just faded away quickly.
Lila: Mmm. So you did it and you saw, Ah, no house fell on me. And you did it again and you’re like Ah, nothing bad happened again, and you did it again and you diditagain and you diditagain and didagain and again and (tongue-waggles ad infinitum). And you’re still okay.
Wry: Yeah, all the good experiences really cleaned out the cobwebs . . . I feel like a lot of sexuality is some form of courage overcoming fear. Including… emotional fears, of intimacy. And then you have those intimate moments over and over again, and you realize, This is pretty awesome. I don’t know what I was afraid of.
[20:58] What is Wry’s first memory of feeling romantic love?
Wry: In high school, I had a best friend who had a huge crush on me. And I was pretty resistant for a few years… And, things changed as we both grew up, and we started to date and, I remember when we had to make the hard decision— in my senior year, she was in college at that point. I knew I was gonna be moving away from Florida, here to Los Angeles, for college. And, that moment when we decided, to move forward with the relationship emotionally, even though we knew it would end, or, at least experience a major change … that felt very loving. That felt very romantic … and dramatic, and cinematic.
Lila: We’re going to do this anyway.
Wry: Yeah. There was a fatalism to it. Like we have to do this. We can’t not do this. We can’t pretend that we don’t feel these things… We can’t go backwards at this point. Have to go forward. […] I think there’s something lovely about choosing heartbreak. And if there’s no chance of heartbreak … are you really in love?
Lila: But doesn’t it always end that way, in one way or another?
Wry: Or death.
Lila: Well that is— wouldn’t that be heartbreak? If your partner dies, before you?
Wry: (unconvincingly) Yeah. I suppose. You do hear those long romantic stories of … how the love never ends, you just miss the person. And I think that happens sometimes with breakups. You just miss each other.
Lila: There’s also all of those tales of the, the older couple who literally can’t live without the other one and and one passes, and the other passes months later.
[23:53] Does Wry know any older couples that are still together?
[25:16] Wry tells a story about taking his Italian grandfather to a Chinese restaurant for the first time, when he was in his 80s.
[26:08] Wry on the propensity for bickering.
[27:00] When did polyamory enter Wry’s life?
Wry: I think when I moved from Florida to L.A., that’s when I became more aware … of the reality of having strong feelings for multiple people. I didn’t start using the term “polyamory” as a self-description, ‘til I think 2010. But, that tale earlier about me being six years old, my best friend and the two sisters, was quite poly. So it was always in there.
Lila: The swapping was just, just, the way that it went.
Wry: One of us would just yell “Switch!”
[28:03] Wry gives his definition of polyamory, which relies on contrast with other relationship labels, like relationship anarchy.
relationship anarchy (noun) = an approach to relationships characterized by the rejection of labels, hierarchy, and societally-imposed rules and / or a philosophy that resists any tendency to rank romantic, sexual, and platonic relationships.
[29:14] Wry on “I love you.”
Wry: I’m pretty strict about how I use the word “love,” unlike most of my community and friends. I don’t tell my friends I love them. Makes me uncomfortable when they say it to me. (Lila mm’s interestedly) I reserve it quite strictly for my long-term, committed, serious relationships … and it’s a big deal if I say “I love you to a partner,” and some partners I had for years and never said it. Sometimes they’d said it to me and I felt uncomfortable. Because it was too big … for how I felt. . . So I’m, very reserved. Once I cross that threshold though, it falls out of my mouth all the time.
Lila: Do you also say “I love you” to your family?
Wry: (noncommitally) Yes, yeah that— th—there’s a different … childhood connotation to it. A certain … casualness to it. Which is how, I think a lot of my community uses it regarding their friends. Chosen family and all that.
chosen family (noun) = the web of people one isn’t related to by blood, yet feels so intimately connected to as to consider family.
Lila: It seems that y— you take it quite seriously, and I wonder if . . . you reserve it for people who you consider family in a way: your, partners.
Wry: (pause) That would make sense, wouldn’t it? Unfortunately it’s not that, because, there’s a lot of folks that I consider family, including former partners, that I don’t say “I love yous” to. Anymore. There’s a certain romantic lustful seriousness to it, much more akin to how most people say, “I’m in love with you.”
Lila: Mmhmm.
Wry: But I’m hearing people use that, too! “I’m in love with my friend.” “I’m in love with pancakes.” (Lila guffaws) “I’m in love with my puppies.”
Lila: I’m in love with this romper.
Wry: “I’m in love with this podcast.”
Lila: (chuckles) Yes please, be in love with this podcast. […] It sounds like that strikes you as careless, or frivolous, or (Wry sighs) throwing it around.
Wry: I try not to judge how other people use it. And just focus on, how I use these words and what they mean to me and try to manage expectations when, people say things to me and I don’t feel comfortable returning it. You know if, if, my friends wanna give me a hug and tell— tell me that they love me, I don’t necessarily wanna scold them for it. Or stop them, or make them feel uncomfortable for expressing themselves. I just hope that they’re very comfortable with me, just smiling in return. With a hug. And that’s it. (Lila hm’s) ‘Cause I really don’t know, what to say back. And I, I remember going through this period exploring definitions of love, across the world, and across time … and … reading books on things like the invention of courtly love … in the 11th and 12th century.
Lila: What was that like?
Wry: (pause) It was maddening, this idea of the knight and the princess who never physically touch, but they love each other. And then, the knight would have his mating and breeding partner. That was almost like chattel… and they were having physical relationships that didn’t touch the lofty, divine love that the knight and princess would have. It was so bizarre to me. It’s really a form of polyamory in itself. And, then somehow Western culture combined those two things. Of course, this is one book’s perception of it. The Invention of Romance, I think that’s the title. I probably got it wrong.
Wry: But it always weirded me out. And then, seeing the different definitions of Latin words for love, like eros.
Lila: Right, so I wanted to— see which ones you could remember. So Eros is the, is the lustful love, right?
Wry: Yeah, I remember that one!
[24:28] Wry & Lila try to remember the rest of them, but can’t quite. So here are some:
Note: These are mostly ancient Greek words for love.
eros (noun) = sexual, passionate love (from the ancient Greek).
philia (noun) = friendship love (from the ancient Greek).
storge (noun) = familial love (from the ancient Greek).
agape (noun) = universal love, usually referring to God or nature (from the ancient Greek).
ludus (noun) = playful love, or love as a game (from the Latin).
pragma (noun) = practical love (from the ancient Greek).
philautia (noun) = self-love, of the hubris or the self-esteem variety (from the ancient Greek).
[35:34] Why did Wry move from Florida to L.A.?
Wry: The excuse was to go to college, and, focus on composing for film — especially, electronic music for film. Really inspired by The Dust Brothers making the Fight Club soundtrack. […] But the real reason was to be a rock star. I’d been playing in bands since I was 12. And, I really believed that the way to make it was to move to L.A., and get an internship at a record label, and, meet the right executive and pass my demo. And that was, gonna be the key! (beat) Didn’t work out. (Lila mmhm’s) It almost did at one point.
[37:10] Wry on relationship anarchy.
Lila: I haven’t heard anyone proclaim themselves a relationship anarchist.
Wry: No?!
Lila: No!
Wry: I know a ton of ‘em.
Lila: And I wonder if it’s because: the people I know who reject all labels are the— (laughs) They don’t wanna take the label of relationship anarchist either!
[38:43] Wry on facilitating a men & male-identified discussion group.
[39:22] Wry on labels.
Wry: I see a real value in labels, and I hold my labels dearly. And I feel like it can help you find kindred spirits that have … similar experiences. Otherwise, the only label we all share is “human,” and some people don’t want that one either.
Lila: Hm … I haven’t heard anybody reject that one, interesting. Which ones do you hold dear?
Wry: (pause) Well I accept a lot of them, in the sense that, I’m cisgender … for lack of a better term, heterosexual, male, whatever you would want to describe me as. You know, if you saw me, as far as how I pass, then I’m ready to embrace that— including when it excludes me, from certain spaces. There’s a growing movement of spaces that are exclusionary … intentionally, for the greater good. Spaces where I might not be welcome… because my presence might be triggering for some folks … and I know that I have some of the trappings of my, labels, some of the worst aspects of patriarchy are pretty dominant in me… I speak authoritatively, often too authori— tative. On a regular basis. (Lila mmhm’s) I’m a— a trained public speaker, so I tend to be loud in a group setting. Because I know that’ll be heard and people will pay attention to it. . . There’s a lotta aspects of it where I feel that it’s not, fair, for me to reject my labels.
Lila: Allright, but these are labels that you said, you accept, and I hear that, but what I was excited about, was… you said there are labels that you hold dear.
Wry: Yeah! Uh, Dominant. Polyamorous… Social Justice Warrior… I’m excited about those. Those are pretty awesome to me. Kinky.
[41:50] Lila asks Wry to define “kinky.”
Wry & Janet Hardy, co-author of The Ethical Slut (and several other pictured books).
[42:39]
Wry: As, as the mainstream gets naughtier … you know, there’s that joke, of, “Hair pulling and ass-spanking, that sounds pretty vanilla to me!”
[43:00]
Lila: I like — for myself, I like: Woman. Annnnd. Kinky… Performer. Creative…. Hmmmm… Lover… Connector. Those are all ones I embrace.
Wry: I think the first one I really embraced was “entertainer.”
Lila: Mm, that makes a lot of sense, you have a, ringmasterish quality to you that I note.
Wry: Yeah! I definitely played a ringmaster in elementary school, with a, a yarn whip, and, some other kids playing a lion.
[44:42]
Wry: Entertaining has always been a high priority for me. I’d much rather, be an entertainer than just about anything else.
Lila: How do you drop the desire to entertain when you’re in an intimate interaction with someone?
Wry: I’m not sure I do drop it… I definitely want to … be of interest, and, capture someone’s attention and imagination…
Lila: I just was struck by a memory that I haven’t… thought about in a very long time. When I was in high school, there was a big musical in town […] and, this musical employed a bunch of kids from my school — probably didn’t pay them — and then, you know, s— imported out of town actors, and there was this one… velvet-voiced mixed actor that I met at a party — I’m surprised he even came to a high school kid’s party, but, you know, I think he was in town without a lot to do, you know, but rehearse for this musical. And, I became totally enamored with him, and he took me out, and… and he was the first person I ever gave a blow job to. And I remember thinking, “Hmm. That doesn’t look like the rest of his skin.” (Wry chuckles.) That looks kinda, purple. (Wry laughs) But I still thought— it was, I wasn’t repulsed by it I thought it was kind of interesting and, and, I’d maybe read some articles, but I hadn’t— and I really don’t think I’d seen any porn at this point— I, I didn’t have, much of a frame of reference for what I was doing. I understood that I was giving a blow job, but I, I didn’t really know any technique or anything and, and I remember him saying, “Are you sure you haven’t done this before?” and I was like, “Owoo, I’m goood at it! Oooohh, exciting!” And, and then, he came in my mouth and told me, that it would feel different to him if I didn’t swallow. (Wry hm’s) And later I’ve wondered if that was… emotional manipulation? Or if it was— if he was saying that … he would feel emotionally different if I, swallowed; he would feel good knowing that I wanted to take him into my body or something, or . . . if he was just kind of … being a manipulative jerk?
Wry: When he said “feel,” was he referring to sensation or emotions?
Lila: I don’t know!
Wry: ‘Cause it would have a different sensation, if you held it in your mouth. Kind of a lubricating feeling.
Lila: Mmhm. That could’ve been what he was referring to. (long pause) But the fact that I didn’t seem to want to, but he convinced me, you know, by saying that it would feel different to him and I wanted it to feel good to him of course, (Wry mmhm’s) I wanted to please him, I wanted to be … good. (beat) And, I remember, I don’t know if it was that day or another day, but I remember being in his little, little rented actor apartment, or provided actor apartment, and him saying, “You know you don’t have to perform for me.” (beat) And I was so struck by it. Because what I heard when he said, “You know, you don’t have to perform for me,” is, “Don’t be fake.” (pause) I think, what he actually meant was, “I really like you and you can relax.” That’s not what I heard in that moment… And then I felt super self-conscious, so that whenever I was exuberant, gregarious, excited, I thought, Am I performing for him? (Wry hm’s) Have you ever been, kind of, poked about that or called out?
Wry: Yeah. I remember one partner in particular would … kind of make fun of me for trying to be cool… And, my response to it was, actually one of, of hurt, and insecurity, and earnest saying, “I’m not trying!” But what she heard was, “I don’t have to try to be cool, I just am.”
Lila: Oh no!
Wry: And that’s really not what I was saying and we had that conversation multiple times, and I just kept trying to insist, “I’m not doing anything; I’m just being myself.” And there were these moments that were also me being myself, where I was sillier or childish, or or just, really … mmm… playful. (Lila mmhm’s) And that’s what she wanted from me, almost all the time. But those moments, just come out when they come out, I’m not, holding them back. And I’m not faking them when they come out. So it really struck me as a weird thing. But when I, perform, or entertain, or attempt to be fascinating, or to capture someone’s attention… there’s so many different ways to do it, and they’re all very real for me. They’re a different emphasis on different sides of who I am.
Lila: Yeah I think— what he seemed to be pointing to… was that somehow what I was doing . . . was a less authentic expression in his eyes, and he wanted something different from me. But the desire to please, charm, and entertain him was very authentic to me.
Wry: Hmm. Maybe he also was trying to reduce pressure. (Lila mm’s) Maybe he was trying to put you at ease.
Lila: (thoughtfully, softly) Yeah.
Wry: Insisting you were good enough, already. And you didn’t need to try hard.
Lila: Mm. That does sound like him. And I imagine he was, quite aware of, the fact that he was doing what I dreamed of doing. So he was already kind of in this aspirational position. And he might have been saying with that, “I think you’re lovely; I think you’re great…”
Wry: Maybe saying, “I’m already impressed.”
Lila: Right. “Otherwise I wouldn’t be spending time with you.”
[54:13] Wry on his relationship to airports.
Lila: All airports look kind of the same.
Wry: (pause) I grew up in airports, so I disagree. I know them— I know some inside and out. My father worked for the airlines. And our family flew for free. So it was literally cheaper to fly than to drive… Spent, countless nights in the Charlotte airport, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia. ‘Cause if there was no room on the plane, we had to just wait for the next one, or the next day… So I got really good at sleeping on the floor.
Lila: Wow, yeah.
Wry: But the Charlotte airport, has a grand piano, or at least it did, for twenty-some years, in the middle of one of the lobbies, in between the terminals, and I started piano lessons when I was four years old. I was pretty serious about it for 10 years and took a break in high school and picked it up again in college. So whenever I was in Charlotte, I would play for everyone… sometimes for hours. Just waiting for the next plane.
Lila: Did you ever wanna be a pilot?
Wry: No. My father’s occupation didn’t really register on my radar at all. He was a flight attendant and worked for the union, which is not quite as glamorous as pilot, but the pilots just annoyed me, because they had seniority and could bump us off a flight.
Lila: Right.
Wry: Damn pilots! Trying to get home! Now I have to sleep on the floor, ‘cause of you.
[56:14] What was Wry’s household like during his childhood?
Lila: Was it just you and your parents in your family?
Wry: Yeah, me and my parents and my siblings. Two sisters and a brother. […]
Lila: And where do you fall?
Wry: I’m the youngest.
Lila: That is not what I expected you to say.
Wry: Yeah I’m, I have a weird experience as a child where, I’m the youngest by quite a few years, with the oldest 11 years older than me, so there was a point where I was an only child, because, they’d all moved away. (Lila mmhm’s) And, were half-siblings that come from previous marriages, so sometimes I was 1 of 2, 1 of 3, 1 of 4, 1 of 1.
Lila: So there was a, a flux in your household.
Wry: Right.
[57:13] Wry on sperm control.
[1:03:16] Spurred by Wry’s quoting of Jurassic Park, Lila tells a story about her friend’s gooey encounter with Jeff Goldblum. And his rainbow cat sweater.
[1:04:47] Why has sperm control been so unpopular?
[1:06:20] What does Wry think of barrierless sex being called fluid-bonding?
Wry: In that podcast of 45 minutes, a big point I make is that kissing is inherently fluid-bonded.
Lila: Saliva.
Wry: You’re exchanging a lot of fluids. And there’s a lot of potential there. You know, I have … HSV1 herpes. There’s—
Lila: As, what? 70, 90 percent, something—
Wry: Ugh.
Lila: — absurd of—
Wry: — something like that.
Lila: (overlapping) — people in the world have.
Wry: I think in L.A. the numbers are: 20 percent of us have symptoms. Including me. So that’s absolutely fluid-bonded, in my book. But we’ve come to equate it in a very heteronormative definition that it’s specifically about, a condom on a penis. Or none. And that’s fluid-bonded or not fluid bonded.
Lila: Well that’s not necessarily heteronormative, since — it could have to do with gay male sex as well.
Wry: It— sure. I suppose just penis-centric then. (Lila mmhm’s) And, I really think of fluid-bonding as, not only a spectrum, but, multiple intersecting spectrums. In the kind world, you might be fluid-bonded with a particular knife. And that knife is getting exposed to bloodborn pathogens, if there are any. That’s a whole other type of fluid-bonding. So it’s: what fluid is being bonded? What body parts are, are involved here, whether it be saliva or other mucus membranes (Lila mmhm’s) and the relative risks of what’s happening.
[1:08:58] Wry on being risk-aware.
Wry: It’s all about be risk-aware, in my book. Not necessarily risk-free.
Lila: Well that’s not possible.
Wry: (chuckling) Exa— yeah, Do Nothing. Interact with noone.
Lila: Go nowhere. Live in a bubble.
Wry: Don’t breathe. Don’t eat. […]
RACK / risk-aware consensual kink (noun) = an acronym often used in the BDSM world. Incorporating the understanding that any kink practice and/or any sexual act carries with it inherent risks — some to a greater degree than others — this phrase denotes full knowledge of the risk factors involved in any act, and an agreement by all involved to take those risks.
[1:09:56] Wry on PREP.
Wry: I’ve been considering going on PREP, for the last few years. And I can’t pinpoint exactly why I’m still just considering it. And not doing it. For one, when I tried, three years ago, I was rejected. They would not give me, access, because, I was considered low-risk, even though I had multiple partners, but since we were all using condoms, and, there was no serodiscordant issue with HIV. I was low-risk, so—
Lila: What—
Wry: — they felt that.
Lila: — is serodiscordant?
Wry: When one person has HIV and the other partner does not.
Lila: Mm, ok.
Wry: So, positive and negative. Where you are knowingly taking that risk on a regular basis. Um, and at the time, there were supply and demand issues. And so it was considered that, with my behaviors and demographic, and risk that I was taking, which was low, I was actually taking it out of the mouths of people who really need it.
Lila: Right.
Wry: And that was good enough for me. (Lila mmhm’s) Case settled, but, those issues are largely resolved. And there’s a lot more supply now. And so, my main reason for not taking it, is cost, which, it’s pretty cheap, but still, another cost in life, and, some hesitancy regarding the potential side effects. Which, I’m always looking into it and… learned new stuff this week, that a lot of the side effects are, easily reversible. You stop taking it; they go away…
Lila: So, I don’t know a lot about PREP but you would take it, if you had HIV, or if you’re trying to prevent?
Wry: It’s primarily for someone who does not have HIV. So you’re negative, and you are being exposed to it. Or if you are engaging in behaviors that are considered a higher risk of exposure.
Lila: And you would take it because, you occasionally have … multiple casual partners?
Wry: It’s hard to say. I mean, my behaviors are pretty low-risk, because I’m always using condoms, and, they’re low-risk behaviors in general. The nonmonogamy is the risk, in itself. And also there’s a bit of cognitive dissonance in that, I get tested, a couple times a year, for the whole gamut of STI’s, including HIV. So if I’m getting tested, why don’t I just take the preventative, when, only three people have ever gotten HIV while on PREP. It’s that—
Lila: Woww.
Wry: — effective. The third one was in February of 2017. It’s just, incredible effective. […] And so while you could still contract anything else, and so there’s still some, you know, some risk involved with any behavior, that risk is basically eliminated.
Lila: But that’s the one that’s most likely to be fatal.
Wry: It’s one of them. Hep C is a big deal, too. There’s a variety of big deals out there. Most of them are very small deal. You know. I, I got chlamydia once, anal chlamydia. It was such a ridiculously small deal. I didn’t even know I had it. There was no risk of spreading it. I took one pill and it was gone in four days.
Lila: When you said you got tested for the gamut — so it wasn’t just gonorrhea, siphilis, chlamydia, HIV. You also got tested for…
Wry: Hep C, and, the oral and anal swabs, which a lot of people don’t get. And you have to ask for those, specifically. Otherwise they won’t test on a standard test.
Lila: Do they give you pushback; do they question you as to why you want it?
Wry: They tend to ask if you’ve have exposure, and I literally got my first anal swab as a bit of a larf, like “Eh, why not?” And uh, it turns out, I had chlamydia. And we really had to scratch out heads and figure out what could be the possible source. What we’d determined is that I’d probably had it for four / five years. And that particular exposure was someone who had told me back then, that they had it, and I had never had, the anal swab, so, I was like, “Well, my penis doesn’t have chlamydia. My mouth / throat doesn’t. I must be fine.” And we determined, that, it was probably from her being a squirter, being on top, and dripping into me.
Lila: Whoaaa.
Wry: Which there’s literally zero way to protect yourself from that.
PREP (noun) = a drug developed for the prevention of the transmission of HIV, often taken when a person is having sex with a partner whose HIV status is known to be positive (i.e. a serodiscordant relationship), and/or, when a person is having sex with multiple partners of high-risk but unknown HIV status.
serodiscordant relationship aka mixed-status (noun) = a sexual relationship in which those involved have different HIV status, e.g. one positive and one negative.
seroconcordant relationship (noun) = a sexual relationship in which those involved have the same HIV status.
Hepatitis C / HCV (noun) = an inflammation of the liver caused by a viral infection, passed from person-to-person through infected blood. It can be sexually-transmitted due to open cuts, menstrual blood, or genital sores.
chlamydia (noun) = one of the most common sexually-transmitted infections in the United States, chlamydia is often symptomless, and passed unknowingly through sexual contact. It can reside in the cervix, the urethra of a penis, the rectum, or the throat, and can cause permanent damage to the reproductive system of a person with a vagina.
gonorrhea aka “the clap” or “the drip” (noun) = one of the most common sexually-transmitted infections in the United States, gonorrhea can lead to infertility. Often symptomless and passed unknowingly through sexual contact by semen, pre-cum, and vaginal fluids. It can reside in the cervix, vagina, penis, anus, throat, urethra, and even eyes.
siphilis (noun) = a fairly uncommon sexually-transmitted infection these days in the United States, siphilis, if untreated, can lead in the long term to brain damage, paralysis, blindness, or heart issues. Since the first two stages involve sores (called chancres) and a rash, it is often passed unknowingly through the sores, and untreated until the third stage, when it can do organ damage. It can reside in the vagina, penis, scrotum, anus, lips, or mouth.
oral swab (noun) = in the context of getting tested for sexually-transmitted infections, many of which can exist in one’s mouth (independent of other areas), through oral contact with infected body parts, the oral swab is a vital test, yet not typically included in a regular STI checkup. You must ask for it specifically.
anal swab (noun) = in the context of getting tested for sexually-transmitted infections, many of which can exist in one’s anus (independent of other areas), through anal contact with infected body parts, the anal swab is a vital test, yet not typically included in a regular STI checkup. You must ask for it specifically.
[1:15:25] Lila asks Wry what he thinks of the “Batman” shorts, full latex shorts designed to remove the possibility of genital contact.
[1:18:11]
Wry: At some point, you just say, “You know what? Is there really that much difference between HSV1 and HSV2? Is there that much difference between oral herpes and genital herpes? Both are a type of outbreak. Both are a certain type of stigma, which is, unwarranted.
HSV1 aka herpes simplex virus 1 (noun) = commonly known as oral herpes, although it can affect both the mouth and the genitals, HSV1 is an exceedingly common virus which causes sores (often around the mouth and lips and sometimes called “cold sores”) and can be passed even while sores are unapparent, through a process called viral shedding. Often transmitted through kissing or sharing eating utensils.
HSV2 aka herpes simplex virus 2 (noun) = commonly known as genital herpes, although it can affect both the mouth and the genitals, HSV2 is a common virus which causes sores (most often around the anus and genitals) and can be passed even while sores are unapparent, through a process called viral shedding. Mostly transmitted through sexual contact.
oral herpes (noun) = known clinically as HSV1, oral herpes can affect both the mouth and the genitals. It is an exceedingly common virus which causes sores (often around the mouth and lips and sometimes called “cold sores”) and can be passed even while sores are unapparent, through a process called viral shedding. Often transmitted through kissing or sharing eating utensils.
genital herpes (noun) = known clinically as HSV1, genital herpes can affect both the mouth and the genitals. It is a common virus which causes sores (most often around the anus and genitals) and can be passed even while sores are unapparent, through a process called viral shedding. Mostly transmitted through sexual contact.
Lila: And you can have 1 or 2 in either place.
Wry: Correct.
Lila: Which I didn’t realize until recently.
Wry: Or both. You can have herpes anywhere on your body, including in your cuticles, which is usually called whitlow. You can get it in your eyeball. You can get it anywhere. But you know, there’ll probably never be a cure, or even a vaccine, because it’s not that big of a deal.
53. sperm control: horizontal with a nonmonogamy consultant
Horizontal is a podcast about intimacy. It’s recorded while lying down, wearing robes, sharing a single pillow. I take you into my bed (or in the case of these episodes, recorded while I was on the road across America, someone else’s bed), and let your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.
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