This is also Madison Young.
Lila: My mother is an immigrant from Brazil, and it was only recently that she became a citizen, and so for years and years and years, she just had a Green Card.
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: So imagine, [if] my mother went to Brazil, during that time, and comes back, and cannot come back into, what is her country.
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: She has been here for forty-one years or something like that.
Madison: Wow. Yeah.
Lila: Imagine the kind of unnecessary trauma in— involved in that.
[…]
Madison: But I think that what we have to do is we just have to join together, we have to make our voices heard, we have to be louder than ever. It’s, it’s a time for bravery; it’s a time for standing up for what we believe in, and, it’s a time for being strong allies for the people that need it. And, and holding space, and holding the mic for those people.
Lila: Yesss.
Madison: You know, we have to s— we cannot divide. We have to stay together and stay, strong, and stick up for each other.
Lila: It reminds me of the old drawing from social studies class, the snake in the 13 pieces, representing the 13 colonies and it says, “Unite or Die.” It feels that way. We cannot be— we are on the same side, we cannot be, you know, we cannot let Voldemort come at us while we squabble amongst ourselves about—
Madison: Over small things.
Lila: — language, or or, making a, yes, a silly or ignorant mistake that is innocent.
Madison: Yeah. We have to find compassion, come at this with— I think, love is, is truly powerful, truly uniting. I think Reveal All is, is a very powerful piece, too. I think more radical art, more radical articles, more radical books, more radical podcasts. It’s, it’s time to put our voices out there, to be honest, and to stand up against what is happening. Otherwise, it’s just gonna continue to happen and it’s gonna get worse.
*
Lila: Nobody is learning how to do it—
Madison: Right.
Lila: And so those of us who are trying to do it well, are making it up. But there are people who have done it, and there are people who have— I was talking with somebody about this the other day, ritualized the breakup, (Madison mmhm’s) because why shouldn’t you?
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: Why wouldn’t you memorialize it so that you can have something that is thoughtful and caring and full of compassion, to end a relationship that maybe isn’t right for you anymore, but, but served a beautiful purpose in your life. And why is the only metric of a successful relationship longevity? That’s just—
Madison: Right.
Lila: — unacceptable. There have to be other metrics, because, most of us are failing in the longevity department anyway—
Madison: And we all—
Lila: — so.
Madison: I mean, the, I— here’s, here’s one fact in life. Everything changes.
Lila: Right.
Madison: We all change. We continue to change and to evolve, and, and so relationships change.
Madison: People change. Lila: And of course they will!
Lila: How can we hold them to a different standard than the rest of nature?
Madison: Right, so we must make room for that, that change to happen, and sometimes that change looks like, we’re not romantic partners anymore.
Lila: I remember r— watching the video of Marina Abramovic in her (Madison mmhm’s) series “The Artist is Present” (Madison mmhm’s) when her ex comes in and she hadn’t seen him in a certain amount of years, and I was so inspired reading about the ritual that they did, walking al— I’ve got chills, just say— everytime I say it—
Madison: Yeah, yeah.
Lila: — I get chills. Walking along the Great Wall of China and meeting in the middle and deciding that— I’ve got chills!
Madison: I know, me too.
Lila: Deciding that that was the end of their relationship. Why shouldn’t it be something as epic as falling in love is? Why shouldn’t it be something that we—
Madison: That’s honored!
Lila: — honor. (Madison mmhm’s) And one way that I know to honor something is to make a ritual out of it. To give it— and it’s really, the art of attention, right, it’s really the— the attention is what makes the ritual, you could do the same act without the attention, and intention, (Madison mmhm’s softly) to ritualize, to honor, to memorialize, to close, to— you said sometimes you have to tie your own ribbon. So sometimes that person is not available to close with you—
Madison: Right.
Lila: And— I love that. Is— is that yours? You have to tie your own ribbon? Does that come from?
Madison: Yeah, I just came up with it when we were chatting!
Lila: It’s brilliant, Madison!
Madison: It’s creating our own closure.
Lila: I love it though, also because the image of a ribbon. (Madison mmhm’s softly) You think of a ribbon as something that you, take off when you unwrap, when you begin, when you have, a new experience with a gift or, (Madison mmhm’s softly) or a person who maybe, (Lila titters) has a ribbon on (Madison laughs) or something like that, but to, to tie something with a ribbon, and say that you’re not going to open it again. But there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be beautiful on the outside. I just think it’s a— it’s such a profound way to, to visualize it and conceptualize it.
Madison: Well thank you. I will put that one in my pocket.
*
Lila: And, before that, I thought … let me ask my Dad, if he’ll do an episode with me (Madison mmhm’s) and it’s weird to— I can’t say, getting— you know, getting horizontal with my Dad — (Madison uhhuh / chuckles) […] and he’s not going to be comfortable lying down anyway—
Madison: Right.
Lila: — ‘cause he has terrible sciatica.
Madison: Right. Uhhuh.
Lila: So, I’m gonna call it, “sitting relatively upright with my Dad.” (laughs)
Madison: Oh my gosh that’s awesome! I love it!
Lila: And I did it last week. (Madison gasps) Yeh! Yeh!
Madison: That’s great!
Lila: I recorded with him for three hours last week!
Madison: Oh my goodness.
Lila: Oh my God—
Madison: Wow.
Lila: — I’m so excited.
Madison: I can’t wait to hear it.
Lila: And now I have that. You know? Now I have, three hours of, of me—
Madison: Conversation with your father!
Lila: Of me asking him all these questions I’d never asked him before!
Madison: Yeah…
Lila: About his Dad, about— I didn’t even know he knew his grandparents, about, you know, growing up in Brooklyn, how he feels going— coming back there now, and, and his first— his firsts.
Madison: Yeah…
Lila: His first time having sex, his first crush—
Madison: Wow.
Lila: — his first kiss.
Madison: And he opened up about all of that.
Lila: He shared all of it with me!
Madison: That’s so brave and amazing. Lila: My Dad! Is amazing!
Madison: Yeahhh.
Lila: I can’t believe that he would agree to do that! And he did! And then he just shared with me. And he knows, he knows where it’s going. He knows it’s going to the world.
Madison: (sweetly) Yeah…
Lila: And, I asked him once, if he would do a Story Corps, ‘cause you know they have that, project that s— saves the stories, and you know they’ll be saved probably for longer, they’ll be archived for longer than anything that we would create. (Madison mmhm’s) And he said, “Ohh, no, I’m not, I don’t really want to do that,” and I said, “But Dad, you said you’d be willing to do an episode with me,” and he said, “That’s different.” (Madison laughs lightly) ‘Cause it’s me, and it’s (Madison uhhuh’s) for what I wanna—
Madison: Wooow!
Lila: — put out into the world! I’m so, I—
Madison: That’s so awesome! Lila: This is the best conversation—
Lila: I’ve ever had with my father. And also to be able to— I mean, maybe you got a sex talk as a kid, maybe, you know, you’ve heard a little bit, about— you, you got some education from your parents, but have you? Do you know anybody who’s interviewed their parents about their relationship to sexuality, or their sex life? Does anybody— really want to know that much? About their parents? And why not? Why is it such a, a taboo to know that your parents are sexual creatures, ‘cause, your parents are sexual creatures ‘cause they had you, so they had to be— mostly, right, I mean there’s, there’s exceptions to this of course, now, um, with insemination and things like that, but … we— we all are sexual creatures, even if we’re asexual—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: And we have a relationship to sexuality, and to never speak about that very crucial aspect of your existence with your parents—
Madison: It’s a huge part of our lives.
Lila: Wow, you know.
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: I’m I’m sure that there’s a, there’s a going-too-far-ness about it, there are things that you don’t need to share, but, to never share anything about it? And most people never share anything.
This is a special edition of horizontal, the podcast that takes you into my bed and lets your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.
horizontal aims to dispel shame, diminish loneliness, and cultivate connection
At Reveal All Fear Nothing, there is a Splash Zone. It’s more commonly known by its maiden name, the VIP section.
In this episode, recorded last week at Hacienda Villa, I lie down with Madison Young. Madison is a performance artist, an author, a sex educator, and a feminist pornographer.
Hacienda Studio, our event space, hosted three performances of Madison’s one-woman show Reveal All Fear Nothing in May. It is literally like nothing else I’ve ever seen. Reveal All demystifies, illuminates, and celebrates the often-misunderstood worlds of kink, porn, and BDSM, through the words and body of an insider.
It is important work. It needs to be seen. And it needs to be seen by you. I don’t want to reveal too much for her, because you should find a way to watch her reveal it yourself, but I must tell you this: I haven’t even seen my own g-spot yet… but I’ve seen Madison’s.
Did you even know that was possible?
You could say, quite accurately, that I was moved. In so many ways. Throughout the night, I laughed, I danced, I gasped, my heart hurt, I ran upstairs during intermission and gave my date a blow job … I cheered, and I was left with this liquid pool of gratitude at the astonishing generosity with which Madison has crafted this piece. She made us a gift. Find out where the show will be next on RevealAllFearNothing.com – and go see it. Produce it in your cities. Bring it to your hometowns. There is radical sexual healing to be had, merely by being a witness to this work.
In the first half of our episode, titled “reveal all fear nothing: horizontal with a feminist pornographer,” we talked about Madison’s memoir, titled “Daddy,” saturations, rainbow unicorn bondage, self-aftercare, how a porn star prepares, and the petition that stopped Madison from going to church.
In this half, we discuss how to have the sex talk, break-up rituals, bunny games and bunny sex and one stuffed bunny in particular, the privilege of being out, institutionalized misogyny, call-out culture, and unicorn mermaid role-play
Now we invite you to do something legions of fans have only dreamed of…
Come lie down with us.
If you enjoy lying down with Madison and I, become a patron of the horizontal arts! Patreon is an innovation in the life of the artist. It’s a website that crowdsources income on a monthly basis. It can make it possible for me to continue creating independent, uncensored, ad-free homemade radio. My intention is to keep this podcast ad-free, but also to make this my primary career. Show me that you believe in my mission of cultivating intimacy across the world (and dislike ads)!
Links to Things:
Patron of the horizontal arts!
Hacienda Villa, my home and where we recorded this episode, a sex-positive intentional community
Hacienda Studio, where Madison performed her Brooklyn dates of Reveal All, housed at the Villa
Reveal All Fear Nothing, Madison’s radical, important solo show (want to bring it to a town near you?)
Madison Young.org (Madison’s website is down at the moment, but hopefully will be back up soon)
Empire Travel Agency, an immersive production for four audience members at a time. Lila played Piper Pilfer in the play (Summer/Fall 2015)
A Brimful of Asha, the play where Lila’s college friend Ravi Jain performs a two-hander about his life, with his mother!
Dapper fellow who sells bow ties at the Union Square Christmas market
How to Break Up With Anyone, a book that Lila wants to read, by Jamye Waxman
“The Artist is Present” Video of Marina Abramovic meeting her lover again after so many years. The last time they met in person was at the culmination of a performance art piece they called “The Lovers,” during which they walked the Great Wall, met in the middle, and ceremoniously ended their relationship.
Transparent, one of the most important pieces of entertainment of our time, and Jill Soloway, its creator
Why is SESTA/FOSTA, a legislation against sex trafficking, making the lives of sex workers less safe?
Shadow banning (what Madison referred to as shadowblocking)
Abby Hertz, who throws the LUST parties, sexy parties (not sex parties, sexy parties) in New York. Her website describes them as erotic dinner parties.
Madison’s unicorn/mermaid role play film with Ela Darling, Unicorns & Mermaids
Madison during the performance of Reveal All Fear Nothing that I attended at Hacienda Studio in Brooklyn, New York. May 2018. Photo by me!
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to iTunes, this website, or my Patreon!):
iTunes link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/horizontal-with-lila/id1238031115&ls=1
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[6:46]
Madison: There was one person in the front row of one of the shows, that during my anal tear monologue, laughed, three times, during the monologue! Which it’s just like a v—
Lila: Whoaaa!
Madison: An extremely vulnerable, and, it’s like: This is my pain. This is my trauma. And opening it up. You know. And I’m about to go into this like, even more traumatic, kind of—
Madison: — dance. Lila: Section.
Lila: Yeah.
Madison: You know, movement piece. And, it really threw me for a loop, because, it had never— that had never happened before.
Lila: No, you—
Madison: Sophia, my director, said— she was like, “I almost got up and just removed the person … and, I just took a moment. And took a breath, and continued. But she said that next time to … to say it. You know, and I think that’s the great thing about, about—
Lila: (overlapping) Ohhh, yeah….
Madison: — about this, this piece, is that it is a conversation; I can hear you. I can hear your responses. If you laugh at my pain, how does that make you feel?
[10:05] Madison & Lila talk actor’s nightmares.
[11:00]
Madison: Oh my gosh, I have to tell you about this—
Lila: Please!
Madison: — this most recent actor’s nightmare that I had. The nightmare starts with: nothing is ready. Nothing is ready, the set’s not ready, and nothing is ready, the make-up artist is not there, and it’s getting close to showtime, I’m getting nervous. All of a sudden, the, the audience starts to pour in, and I’m back in the green room freaking out, wondering where the make-up and hair person is, and I have nothing that I need. And then, the lights go down, and the show starts, but I’m in the green room, and I’m like, “What is going on?” And it’s MY MOTHER. (huge gasp from Lila) who steps onto the stage and instead, starts just telling embarrassing stories—
Lila: Oh my gosh!
Madison: — about me. Yes. That (laughing) is my most recent, nightmare.
Lila: Wow, and—
Madison: — that was directly related to Reveal All Fear Nothing.
Lila: And by the way, I’ve seen a show sort of like that.
Madison: Really?
Lila: Yeah, my, my friend that I went to theatre school with, Ravi, he did a show with his mom.
Madison: Oooh.
Lila: Called A Brimful of Asha. (Madison uhhuhs) And a lot of it is: him saying something— or her saying something and him being like, “Nonono, Mom, have to tell,
You, you can’t tell them that! You have to tell it this way. You know, and she’s just like saying all of these embarrassing things, about him, on— you know, onstage, and it’s the show, it’s part of the show, and I thought, Wow, that is unprecedented. I have never heard of anything like that.
Madison: Is it scripted?
Lila: It’s scripted. Madison: Is it—
Madison: The Mom is an actress?
Lila: She’s not an actress.
Madison: Okay…
Lila: She’s never been on stage before. (Madison uhhuhs) He’s the weird one of his family, (Madison uhhuhs) for being an actor, not being a doctor—
Madison: Right.
Lila: — whatever else they wanted him to do, and this show is about that! How they wanted to create an arranged marriage for him, but he’s so … he was so Americanized. (Madison uhhuhs) He’s Canadian, but Americanized, we went to school together in New York. (Madison uhhuhs) So I think what it is, is he adapted conversations that they’d already had (Madison uhhuhs) multiple times. But then to put a non-actor on stage, when it’s your mother, when it’s your life, when you’re talking about this, this (hilarious, as it turns out, but) it was a very earnest attempt on their part to marry off their son, (Madison uhhuhs) so it’s hilarious to us, (Madison uhhuhs) but I think they could do it now, because now he is married — not to someone that they arranged (Madison uhhuhs) but to someone that they approve of and he is married, so now she, you know, has the possibility of the grandkids, which is what she brings up at the end, right. She’s like, “Oh, now you give me grandkids,” you know? And, it’s something that I had never (little exhale) just never before heard of.
[13:45] Lila on recording with her father.
[16:45] How did Madison learn about sex, growing up in Ohio?
[17:02]
Madison: So my mom and dad, they split when I was like four years old, and, my mom was a— was a single mom of two kids, and … she, you know, she didn’t have any resources— there still aren’t that many resources, it’s one of the reasons that I do all of the work that I do (inhale) around how to talk to your children, about sex. And, I really grew up in a religious household, Iii, felt shame around my body; I was never given words for my vulva, for my vagina, for my clitoris, I didn’t know my body parts. M-my mom never explained menstruation to me.
Lila: Oh my.
Madison: I was very terrified when I started bleeding—
Lila: Oh nooo!
Madison: — and was not, given any kind of an explanation. She handed me a book, and then promptly took it away, because she had second thoughts.
Lila: Oh my God, no!
Madison: And, when kids … would try to tell me, like what sex is, or bring up sex, I would cover my ears, and I would like, scream, and run because (Lila gasps) I was so afraid of whatever this sex thing was. You know, I was like, I was told, it was like, wrong, it’s dirty, it’s evil. So I didn’t know what it was, but I knew it was something: Stay away from it. Is what I was told.
Lila: What religion did her beliefs come from?
Madison: She was Methodist. You know, Christian. So there was definitely a point in going to church, that I vividly remember, in which they were passing around a petition to ban gay marriage—
Lila: Oh my God…
Madison: And, at that time, I definitely knew that, even though I didn’t know what sex was, I knew that, I, had desire around, um, women. (Lila mm’ssoftly) And I looked at my mom and I, I, I said, “Please don’t sign that.” I said, (Lila sighs heavily) “Please don’t sign that. Everyone deserves to be with each other if they love each other,” and she looked at me, and she said, “Everybody’s looking,” and she signed it (Lila whimpers a little) and I told her I was never going back to church.
[19:46]
Madison: There were no conversations, there were no conversations around sex. I had no sex education, really, until … I was 17 and left Ohio and went to Chicago, for my freshman year of college. And I s— I sought it out on my own. Through books.
[20:32] Madison tells a bit about her mother’s origin story.
[21:45]
Madison: So I think she wanted me to stay away from men altogether, and then, I was gay! (both laugh) Then I came out as, a lesbian and she was like, “No! You’re just confused! What did I do, I’m so sorry!”
Lila: (overlapping) Oh my gooosh.
Madison: And I’m like, “What did you do? Really? What did you do? You said you were gonna be on the porch with a shotgun if a guy came near the house!
Lila: (gasps) Oh, my gooodness.
Madison: So, it was— y— you know, I mean, we’ve done lots of processing. And my mom and I have a very healthy relationship now, she actually hates it when I bring all— I’ve brought this stuff up on like, on national TV and Bravo and every— and, like, this is my root, though!
Lila: (overlapping) Yeah, but, this is what happened.
Madison: This is my history. This is my—
Lila: This is your origin story.
Madison: This is my origin, and it’s a huge— it’s the reason I do the work that I do.
Lila: Of course it is! You’re fighting back against that, in the hopes that other people won’t have that experience of—
Madison: Exactly.
Lila: — repression, lack of information, confusion, disgust at your own body, fear when you start to bleed, you— you know, you don’t want that to happen to anybody—
Madison: No—
Lila: So you do—
Lila: what you do. Madison: So instead—
Madison: —like, my seven year-old knew quite clearly at two years old and could tell you everything about menstruation. You know, can, can explain the anatomy, to a tee! (laughs)
Lila: Perfect.
Madison: And understands their body. And there’s nothing wrong with that; there’s everything right with that.
Lila: Absolutely.
Madison: How empowering is that!
[23:07] Has Madison told her eldest daughter / when will she tell her that she is a porn star? What is the age-appropriate time?
Madison: I believe in being open and talking about what I do in an age-appropriate way, and what that means is, is being very honest about my work. My work: I am an artist, I have a one-woman show, I am au— I am an author of three books, I teach sexuality workshops. I say that: Sex is a way in which grown-ups share affection with each other.
Lila: Mmm.
Madison: Grown-up bodies and grown-up minds, share affection with each other—
Lila: Ohhh, I like that.
Madison: Just—
Lila: Sex is a way in which grown-ups share affection with each other.
Madison: And children have ways of sharing affection with each other too, you know, um, through handshakes and hugs and fist bumps and all kinds of things, that work for their bodies. And in regards to, to porn, my child knows that, mommy and daddy make, movies and films for grown-ups. And there are many grown-up films that, um, are either porn or not porn—
Lila: Or not, for sure!
Madison: You know, there are many many— most of the films that you see listed on the marquee are not children films.
Lila: Because they are full of violence—
Madison: They’re full of violence—
Lila: And this culture’s much more comfortable with violence than it is with sex, bizarrely.
Madison: Absolutely. So, they, they know that. She knows that. And we’ll have conversations around the actual vernacular of porn when it becomes appropriate, or if they ask questions about what exactly is porn, and I think maybe that term has, just because of what we do, it has perhaps, maybe come up and I’ve said that, it is, um, the, the documentation of that sharing of affection. So, um, (Lila hm’s) you know. It’s, it’s like hugging, but for grownups. On film.
Lila: (laughs) Yes. (beat) Mirelle told me that there is one … one barometer, or one school of thought, about age-appropriate sex-ed for children — or age-appropriate, I guess, education in, in general — that if, that the barometer is curiosity. That that if they’re old enough to ask the question, (Madison mmhm’s) then they’re old enough to be given an answer about it.
Madison: Right. But to give a small amount at first (Lila mm’s) because, often, grownups— I think that sometimes are like, “Oh! My gosh! We have to have this— talk.” (Lila laughs) And, they start spilling all these words that just don’t even make sense to the kids, so you have to find ways that it relates—
Lila: Right.
Madison: — to them.
Lila: And you’ve already— Madison: That make sense to them.
Lila: — laid a groundwork that says—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: It’s like hugging for adults. Well, at some point, they’re gonna say, “What does that mean?”
Madison: Right.
Lila: “How do adults hug that’s different from children?”
Lila: Well. Madison: Right.
Lila: And then, there’s a natural—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: — easeful progression of information, where, they don’t have to feel duped, it’s not, there’s no stork in there—
Madison: Right.
Lila: It’s not like—
Madison: There’s never a false story— Lila: — they’re going to—
Madison: — it’s always the truth—
Lila: But a part.
Madison: But allowing more and more detail or information to come in when they’re ready for it.
Lila: Nuance— Madison: And add—
Lila: — when they’re ready for it.
[26:44] What happened when Madison started experimenting and dating and touching in Chicago at 17?
[27:10] Madison talks erotic dreams, and Lila rhapsodizes about dry humping. (It’s a delightful act with bad PR.)
Lila: Had you been masturbating, or was that also discouraged, and—
Madison: Yeah, masturbation was definitely discouraged as well, and I didn’t know what that was, however, I was kind of doing it, anyway? Because I, I would have these dreams, it definitely came out in my dreams, and I would have— sexy dreams, which basically meant like, kissing.
Lila: Right!
Madison: You know, like, bodies close to each other—
Lila: Right!
Madison: Like kind of grinding and kissing, you know (Lila giggles) making out: Lips. Hands. But, everyone had their clothes on. (Madison laughs)
Lila: Yeah, yeah!
Madison: Um—
Lila: Which can be so erotic and I actually wish that we did—
Madison: Totally.
Lila: — more of that. I wish, there was more frottage. In, even after people have had sex.
Madison: Yeah!
Lila: I feel like dry humping is totally under-rated.
Madison: Oh my God, I love it!
Lila: It’s just, a, a bad name for—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: — something that’s really delicious. And with clothes on, you can really grind and rub in such a—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: — satisfying way, in a way that I even made myself come with my ex-boyfriend one day when we just kind of didn’t have time and I was just like (high-pitched voice) “Oh, but it feels so good!”
frottage (noun) = from the French “rubbing, friction,” commonly used to refer to the act of rubbing against somebody in a crowd, for pleasure.
[Note: Lila doesn’t actually wish that there were more of this kind of frottage — unless it’s consensual play — what she really means is she wishes that people didn’t stop rubbing against one another with their clothes on after they’ve seen each other naked! In other words:]
dry humping (verb) = two bodies rubbing against one another, genital-to-genital, but with clothing in between. Totally under-rated sex act, in Lila’s book.
Madison: Yeah. So I’d have those dreams and I’d wake up and my— I had this stuffed bunny, and like, my stuffed bunny would be in between my legs! (Lila laughs) And I’d just kind of be pressing it. And like feeling, I definitely feel like I had … orgasmic pleasure, from my dreams.
Lila: Woooow.
Madison: And from my bunny. (Madison laughs)
[28:34] The bunny game that Lila plays.
Lila: Oh I love that it was a bunny, because, if you look — Kenneth’s nickname is Bunny—
Madison: I see, there’s quite a few bunnies. Lila: There’s bunnies—
Lila: Everywhere. (Madison uhhuhs and giggles) And at one point, we decided that we would play a game, and the game was that, if he, got me laid, or was directly responsible for me getting laid, (Madison mmhmm’s) I would get him a bunny, of— you know, without specification— a bunny. That corresponded to the quality of the lay.
Madison: Aaaahh.
Lila: So— (Lila laughs)
Madison: Interesting.
Lila: So at one— one I got him just a little plush, you know, kind of bunny peep toy— (Madison uhhuhs) peep not peep show, but peep as in the, the marshmallow thing—
Lila: You eat at Eastertime? Madison: Oohhh, yeah yeah yeah.
Lila: And it was a, it was a purple, ‘cause he loves purple. It was a lavender peep bunny. And then the other one was so good, that I got him a custom-made bunny bow tie—
Madison: Wooow.
Lila: With little white bunnies on a lilac background.
Madison: Oh my goodness, that must have been good.
Lila: Yeah, I ordered it from a guy who was selling at the Christmas market.
Madison exhibitionizing during a performance of Reveal All Fear Nothing. May 2018, Hacienda.
[30:18] Madison on the origins of her exhibitionism.
Madison: Probably hugely influenced by my past, of— if people were looking, it was a huge turn-on (Lila oooooohhs) when I then had the space for me to touch myself or for me to—
Lila: Wow.
Madison: — have sex in public where I could be seen, because is— it was this reclamation of, Wow, I can experience pleasure, and, I’m not going to get in trouble. LOOK MA, I’m not getting in trouble! (Madison laughs)
Lila: That is so interesting. I grew up and my mom was like, “Sex is, a thing that happens between peop— adults who love each other and, and it’s a good thing,” and she made a distinguishing, she distinguished between what is dirty and what is not dirty and, and she said “When you, when you want to have sex — I hope you won’t want to have sex in high school — but you want to, come to me, I’ll get you birth control, I’ll get you, condoms,” like, so it was, it was never treated as a bad thing (Madison mmhm’s) it was treated as a natural thing, and an expression of love, and so, I didn’t have anything to rebel against.
Madison: Right.
Lila: And so I didn’t have sex until I was 19, just by choice—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: And I, my relationship to exhibitionism is that I am, actually very … (big inhale) It’s weird that I want to frame it this way, because the word that came to mind is selfish, with my, sexuality. It’s not really what I mean. What I mean to say is, I don’t want to give someone the gift of witnessing me, unless I choose for them to witness me. (Madison mmhm’s) And I’ve always been, like I was the kid who didn’t— if I didn’t wanna sit on your lap, I wasn’t gonna sit on your lap.
Madison: Right.
Lila: And I, am kind of proud of that feisty little self, who—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: Who said, “I’m drawing boundaries here, I don’t wanna sit on your lap, No.”
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: And it, it’s so interesting, as a performer too, because I, wanna be looked at in the arenas in which I agree that you are welcome to look at me.
Madison: Right.
Lila: If I am on stage you are welcome to look at every inch of me, that’s what I’m here for.
Madison: Right.
Lila: If I’m on the subway, and you’re staring at me too hard, what are you doing?
Madison: Oh, that’s completely different. Yes, (Lila laughs) that’s completely different—
Lila: But, but—
Madison: There’s not that consent, you’re not, you’re not—
Lila: No.
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: But even at a sex party, where, if you’re engaging in sexual acts at a sex party, and there’s no partition, it’s not a private room— (Madison mmhm’s) you are implicitly giving your consent to people to watch you.
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: If somebody is in the room who I don’t want to watch me, it diminishes my turn-on. (Madison mmhm’s) I want control. Over who watches me. (Lila giggles)
[33:21] How did Madison talk back to the indoctrinated shame and stigma around sex from her childhood?
[33:53] Madison on bunny sex.
Madison: We were teenagers, I guess I was, I was 18, and we would, he would come home during his lunch break, or I would come home during my lunch break —
Lila: Ooohhhhhh!
Madison: — we would have sex 3 – 6 times a day.
Lila: Whoa! I’ve never done that ever!
Madison: Every day, you know—
Lila: (small voice) I’ve never even had sex twice in one day.
Madison: Really? Oh my gosh, we, (Lila laughs) we had s— bunny sex. Like nonstop!
Lila: (overlapping) Oh wooow!
Madison: So much sex. Sooo much sex. And so we (Lila laughs) we would always wanna try new things! Right, it’s like, “Oh, well, this morning we tried this, so let’s bring out the handcuffs!” Or, “I found this, like, flavored gel, let’s try this!”
[35:06] All Madison’s exes live in Portland. Is she friends with any of them? Is Lila friends with any of her exes?
[36:30]
Lila: What was that book you were talking about, I have to read it, about endings, about how to break up?
Madison: I think it’s called, maybe, How to Break Up, and I think it’s by (Lila giggles) Jamye Waxman. […]
[Note: the full title is How to Break Up With Anyone: Letting Go of Friends, Family, and Everyone In-Between]
Lila: Oh my gosh, I think it should be required reading!
[37:03] Lila on ritualizing our breakups.
[40:17]
Madison: Reveal All Fear Nothing became— was— started out as that, as well, because, when, people would talk to me and they’re like, “How can you be so out? How can—“ (Lila mm’s) what are y— aren’t you afraid?” And, I would tell them, I feel like, I need to reveal— if I reveal all, I fear nothing, because, there’s nothing that someone can dig up in my past, and, and say, “Oh, but you, you hid this! Or you hid, you hid this sexual part of yourself.” Instead, if I’m open, to the degree that people consent to knowing about any element of my life, then, then you never really have to fear about something being discovered, or, or add to that, that social, (sigh) social stigma around sex.
out (noun) = typically denoting the state of one’s sexuality (or unconventional gender expression / unconventional lifestyle) being public knowledge. i.e. out of the closet
Lila: It is exactly the same for me. I res— I’m vibrating with that. With you. Because, I’m really out, there now. Really out. (Madison mmhm’s) People know things about my whole life, and I don’t know anything about them. (Madison mmhm’s) And, it is me revealing all in order to relieve myself, or, I’ve think— I’ve thought of it as inoculating myself against stigma. (Madison mm’s) Because, if I’ve already shared it, exactly, there’s nothing you can dig up, because I’ve shared it all, or I’m willing to share it. (Madison mmhm’s) So… it’s there.
Madison: There it is!
Lila: It’s out there, they can—
Madison: You can like it, or not like it— Lila: But it’s—
Madison: You can interact with it or not.
Lila: But it’s there!
Madison: But it’s there.
Lila: And I have thought about— I’ve thought sincerely about the privilege that I have to be able to do that in a way that is minimally impactful to my needs as a human being. Need for connection, need for, for money to survive, nee— you know, and I wrote a sentence about it yesterday, and it was: My grandparents are dead, my parents are liberal, my— work-place is kind of badass, and I live in a sex-positive intentional community. So—
Madison: You have that support. Built in.
Lila: I, I have social support, for what I’m doing, and, as with any subculture or subgroup, if you have, you know, your team behind you, you can go out and then if you’re (big inhale) attacked— in some way, verbally, or… scary internet ways (I hope, not, but, you know, probably bound to happen, but) if you are targeted in ways, you can go back to the place where you’re nourished, and where people appreciate your kind of warrior spirit, against the m— mores, the constricting mores of society.
Madison: Yeah, I think if you’re completely alone in your experience and in isolation and not in areas where it feels safe to be out, that it’s, it’s much more difficult to be out, because you just don’t have, have that support. I mean, I was able to … reveal all once I left Ohio. (Lila mm’s) I mean, that’s where I was able to, I mean, even get to know myself before I could reveal anything about—
Lila: (laughing) Yes!
Madison: Myself, but. You know, and start to undo that shame.
Lila: Those people who do it in a sea of opposition, those are the people that I admire as brave. I do not know that I am brave; I do not know that I would do it, if I was ensconced in a culture that opposed me doing it.
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: I don’t necessarily think very highly of my own— bravery. I’m actually a fairly risk-averse— person. But then I feel that there is almost a responsibility, having low risk for this and believing in it so much as I do, there’s almost a responsibility then, to share.
horizontal with madison young post-recording. Hacienda Villa. May 2018
[45:37] Madison on stepping forward as a queer person.
[46:10]
Lila: Seeing representation, and knowing people, right—
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: Those, those two things seem to be what actually changes hearts.
Madison: Right. Media, like, yeah!
Lila: I was about to say, representation on the media, in the TV shows, especially—
Madison: Yesss.
Lila: Because—
Madison: It reaches mid-America. All of that middle ground.
Lila: It reaches everybody!
Madison: Outside of the, the bubble.
Lila: Also, they feel connected and invested in their TV shows, and with their characters.
[46:38] Lila rhapsodizes about the way representations of characters on modern episodic television can actually change people’s hearts. [She’d love to be on one of those TV shows someday.]
[48:00] That’s why the TV show Transparent is so important. It sucks that Jeffrey Tambor is verbally abusive.
[48:10]
Lila: I’m sad that he is verbally abusive—
Madison: Yes.
Lila: Because he’s such a great actor, because, he’s on this show that is so important to our culture right now, that we see all these different representations of trans people. Nobody else is doing that! Where is that? That’s nowhere else! Sh— Jill Soloway is doing us a great service. Ughhh, I’m so sad that he’s fucking it up for people. […] Where’s the place for conversation about verbal abuse that is not sexual in this #metoo movement, and time? ‘Cause that’s also not okay, and it’s disproportionately happening against women, but it’s not overtly sexual in nature.
[Note: There are actually several allegations of sexual harassment against Jeffrey Tambor, in addition to the allegation of verbal abuse on set, including allegations from an actress on Transparent and his former assistant. I did not know this when we recorded this episode.]
[49:00] Madison on systematic, institutionalized misogyny. How do we adjust call-out culture to take on the embedded misogyny in society, as opposed to just focusing on calling out individuals? How can we make it about systematic change?
[51:26] Why it’s so important that we fight back against legislation like SESTA/FOSTA.
International Whore’s Day Rally for Sex Worker’s Rights. June 2nd, 2018. “My Body. My Fucking Business.”
[51:45] Madison questions whether her stuff is being shadowblocked [shadowbanned] on-line. Lila wonders if it’s happening to her, too.
shadowbanning (verb) = aka stealth banning, ghost banning, or comment ghosting, the act of blocking a person / their posts from a community on the internet, without them realizing it.
[52:40]
Madison: Abby Hertz, who does the LUST—
Lila: — LUST party.
Madison: Yes. She— I’ve been watching her on Facebook, and she’s had to like, change the— even the name Lust, if it comes up. She has to add spaces in between each of the letters now—
Lila: Oh!
Madison: They’ve taken down, like, every image that she puts up. And it, and it’s ridiculous.
Lila: It’s so ridiculous.
Madison: Because, the stuff she’s putting up is not pornographic at all. At all. (Lila heaves a huge sigh) And even the words, the words are triggering— they’re censoring our words!
Lila: (under her breath) Fuck! It’s it’s it’s Orwellian. It’s backwards!
Madison: An entire folder of Reveal All photos went missing from Google docs. Google has actually been going in—
Lila: Oh, my God.
Madison: I don’t know if it, is from this, but (big inhale) I mean, I’ve heard from many people that Google has been going into the drives and taking down, anything that they deem as potentially pornographic.
Lila: Ughhhh. I am appalled, but not shocked. But not shocked.
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: But I am APPALLED.
Madison: It just continues. Every single day.
Lila: It’s it’s really like, the more advanced we get, the more backwards it goes, and we go, in both directions at the same time! (huuuuuge sigh) Fuck.
[54:05] What is Madison’s hope for the future?
[55:33] How politics interfered in the relationship between Lila and her ex.
[56:55] Lila’s mother, until recently, only had a Green Card.
[1:00:55] Madison tells Lila a story about mermaid sex.
Madison Young & Ela Darling in Mermaids & Unicorns
Madison: So I directed this film called Mermaids & Unicorns.
Lila: (with obvious delight) What?!
Madison: Which was super fun.
Lila: (with obvious delight, again) What?!
Madison: And was all about mermaid and unicorn role play. (Lila pants) Yes. And, so I had never really identified as a mermaid, but, I really, really wanted to have sex with Ela Darling, and she identifies as a mermaid, and—
Lila: Ohhh!
Madison: Um, she was really excited to—
Lila: Mermaid with you?
Madison: (simultaneously) — do the film!
Madison: She wanted to be mermaid with me, and I was like, all right! (Lila laughs) Coo-ool, that means I get to have sex with (Madison lowers her voice) she used to be a librarian.
Lila: What?
Madison: Yeah.
Lila: A real one? (both giggle)
Madison: It gets me so hot, thinking about—
Lila: She is shivering next to me right now.
Madison: — having sex with a, a person that used to be a librarian. It’s just like the hottest thing in the world to me…
[For the rest of the story, you’ll have to tune in to the episode… Good thing I’ve made it easy. Click below, young grasshopper.]
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