This is Geoffrey in his natural habitat.
87. poly by nature: horizontal with an evolutionary psychologist (1 of 2)
In this episode, I lie down with Geoffrey Miller, PhD: evolutionary psychology professor, author of books, out polyamorist, lifelong investigator of human nature. I met Geoffrey at a dinner party hosted by a Blue Man and curated by an adventuresome scholar of the brain- expressly for the purpose of discussing the future of intimacy.
Geoffrey: I found it totally reasonable to have a crush on more than one girl at a time.
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Geoffrey: I was just realizing that you can have really interesting, semi-erotic experiences that it’s hard to put a crisp label on. Like was that a bad experience; was it a good experience? Hard to say. Was it interesting? Absolutely. Was it scary? Yes. Memorable, yes. Did it make me think a lot more about Wow, what would sex be like with women who were clinically insane? Yeah, I thought about that more.
Lila: Did it intertwine some fear with your eroticism at all?
Geoffrey: Yeah. For sure. ‘Cause some of the guys had been talking about “Well what if, the crazy female ghosts, you know, kidnap us and put us in the basement and do things to us?” and “What will they do to us?” and so there was a lot of latent… kind of kink….. content to the, the chatter.
Lila: Right, and the fantasy of them being insane and not knowing what they were doing… gave permission to the boys to be aroused, I think. Like, “I don’t know, I was just overcame by this crazy ghost, this crazy lady ghost!” […] Now I hear fantasies and I think about how it makes the fantasizer feel safe to be aroused, and what fears it might assuage.
Geoffrey: Well it is striking, with all of these fantasies about being kidnapped by the insane, ladies — it’s almost an exact parallel, right, to women’s fantasies about being kidnapped by pirate captains or Genghis Khan or whatever, where— suddenly you’re not responsible for whatever happens sexually because it’s out of your control. […] And whatever the husband-stabbing psychopath ladies do to you is, not your fault.
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Lila: They’re getting it from all angles — women that they might want to date who feel uncomfortable, dating a bisexual man. I’ve never, myself, I don’t think, dated a bisexual man— maybe some— maybe heteroflexible with, who’s had a few encounters, but not someone who identified as bisexual I don’t think. And I’ll have to examine that in myself to see if that’s… if I’m indoctrinated with some of that stigma, as well… And then they’re also getting it from gay men… like, “Wellll.” I remember we used to joke, “Oh, he’s GBG: Gay By Graduation,” annd… maybe some of those men were bi, and, that joke, was part of stigmatizing them and I feel ashamed for my part in that. I do not want to contribute to that, at all! I really — obviously, in the way that I live my life, I want to promote choice and, freedom of sexual expression, and full expression. And also! Allowing people to change! And change their, relationship style, as they change, and their environment changes, and who they love changes. It seems to me that the single most detrimental opinion or constriction about human sexual or romantic relationships is that they should remain the way that they started, and that you should choose a way, and go with it, and that if you deviate from it, then you’ve failed. And this goes also for the other way around— not just monogamy into polyamory, but people who’ve experimented with polyamory, and say, you know, “Actually that’s not for me now,” getting shit from their poly community! Which is… CRAZY to me! As a subculture, I would think you’d be more respectful of people’s… choices, and people’s ability to shift! Hopefully, our lives are long; we have many lives to live within this one life.
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Geoffrey: When I talk to my students about polyamory, I say, “Okay look, it’s basically, the casual dating that you guys are already doing… but with more mutual knowledge about what is actually happening, so that everybody can buy into it.
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Geoffrey: I know in principle, sure, you should be able to have a friend who you can cuddle with and, develop a burning fascination with their dissertation topic, right, in principle.
Lila: (laughs) It would be great.
Geoffrey: In fact though, what tends to happen is— guys in particular, tend to take, more of an interest in what women are into, if they’re dating and having sex. And I think that’s okay, because guys who have a bunch of experiences like that, learn to see women as complete beings with their own careers and ambitions and intellectual interests.
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Geoffrey: It was surprisingly easy in some ways, because I think guys can kind of go into a Dad mode, even if they don’t have a lot of experience of it. I think Stepfathering was not that rare in prehistory. I think a lot of times, young men would be interacting with women who already had kids from other guys. And maybe the other guy is: killed in battle, run away, got gored by a mammoth, stung by bees, or just, lacked interest in the woman, whatever. So I think stepping into that role wasn’t that unusual. But of course it brings some challenges and conflicts and… you have to level-up your maturity really fast. […] If you’re dating a woman with no kids, then… you’re responsible to her, right, and you wanna do right by her, but if kids are in the mix, then suddenly the ethical stakes are quite a bit higher. ‘Cause you suddenly owe a duty of care — not just to her, but to her kids, as little entities unto themselves.
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Lila: Most monogamous people that I know don’t have a conversation about what it means to them to be monogamous. And, all the nonmonogamous people I know, have conversations about what it means to them to be nonmonogamous.
In this episode, I lie down with Geoffrey Miller, PhD: evolutionary psychology professor, author of books, out polyamorist, lifelong investigator of human nature.
I met Geoffrey at a dinner party hosted by a Blue Man and curated by an adventuresome scholar of the brain— expressly for the purpose of discussing the future of intimacy. The sex scientist Dr. Zhana was there, our mutual friend and my horizontal guest of episodes 4 & 5. She and the brain scholar invited Geoffrey. In fact, the dinner party was scheduled around his visit to New York.
And then, I knew why.
He would listen and listen, and then say something so incisive, so crystalline-clear, backed by conscientious research and immersion in the topic of human sexuality. He spoke quietly and with a gravitas reserved for someone who has studied their studies and lectured their lectures and doesn’t need to prove any of it to you.
He was also a bit rakish in the way that my first-ever lover was. They have the same je ne sais quoi about the eyes— a mischeivousness, an insouciant uplooking through a fringe of lashes, a Domly-ness that’s only partly concealed by their glasses… but loudly visible, if you know how to look for that sort of thing.
We recorded on a king bed in a mancave in Bushwick, Brooklyn, an airbnb that Geoffrey had rented for his New York stay. There was a fish tank. An enormous leather couch, and a flat screen TV. Because we recorded in my neighborhood: this episode has plenty of local color. If it’s not the overhead train squealing to a stop, it’s the incessant galumphing of the toddler upstairs (uaghhh), or the ice cream truck playing it’s deathly tune in the background. If you add in some planes, cringe-worthy music played at an unholy decibel, and a whole lotta sirens: This is what it’s like to live in Brooklyn. Or at least, in my part of Brooklyn.
In this, the first part of our voluminous, far-ranging conversation, we talked about:
- his family dynasty (11 aunts & uncles, 28 cousins)
- growing up with intellectual, activist parents
- his Dad’s weekly pre-college briefings about Things That Will Happen in New York (lecture one: prostitutes)
- an act of sexual altruism
- a tale of CPR dummies and lady ghosts of the asylum
- the difference between anthropology and evolutionary psychology
- 80s cotillions
- dating before cell phones
- the similarities between Geoffrey and his brother the preacher
- heteroflexibility
- bisexual stigma (particularly of men)
- future sex-positive societies
- talking to college students about polyamory
- how Geoffrey met his first wife and became an Instant Stepdad
- struggling with monogamy
- stepfathering in prehistory
- how marital therapy fails men
- psychotherapy solutions vs. manosphere solutions
- why most clinical psychologists aren’t well-versed in different relationship styles
- and Geoffrey’s coming-out-poly story.
Phew. And then I begin the tale of how I met Patrick, which begins with 14 Rooms and culminates at the Love Immersive, with Steve Dean (a recent horizontal guest!) as the catalyst.
In the second part of my conversation with Geoffrey, which will be released next week as episode 88, I dive deep into the massive revelation I had around my own jealousy, and he gives me a broader understanding of my emotions from an evolutionary psych perspective. To listen to that episode, become a patron of the horizontal arts at $7 or more per month (Yes yes! There’s now a $7 tier, by popular demand.)
Patreon is the love child of crowd-funding and a subscription service, and $7 a month gives you access to The Full Horizontal (all the part two episodes, and any bonus episodes which, P.S. One such bonus shall be released sooooon — plus an invite to the secret patrons group and our patron get-togethers!)
Also, what do you think about this: horizontal listeners as a group, could be known as: hozzies… (to be rhymed with Aussies)
Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
Now, come lie down with us in Bushwick, Brooklyn.
horizontal with Geoffrey Miller in Brooklyn. May 2019
Links to Things:
Geoffrey’s website, primalpoly.com
Geoffrey’s Twitter, where he is very active and sometimes rants and has put his foot in his mouth once or twice
Mate: Become the Man Women Want, the book Geoffrey co-authored with Tucker Max, that I listened to before I met him
The Mating Grounds, Geoffrey’s podcast with Tucker
Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies, a book that began Lila’s deep dive into sex-positivity
Mal Harrison, the sex therapist that I went to for sessions with my ex
Ian M. Banks’s The Culture Books — science fiction that Geoffrey loves, featuring future sex-positive societies
The Joy List, a weekly compilation of events in NYC that you can go to alone and leave with a friend! I read it every single week. (Also Jillian just wrote a book called Unlonely Planet, about how community can save us!)
Open Brain, a place to share ideas, which was instrumental in connected Lila to:
Steve Dean, recent podcast guest and curator of:
The Love Immersive, a townhouse full of exploration of the 5 Love Languages, where I met Patrick
Pamela Madsen’s treatise about loving a soft cock
87. poly by nature: horizontal with an evolutionary psychologist (1 of 2)
In this episode, I lie down with Geoffrey Miller, PhD: evolutionary psychology professor, author of books, out polyamorist, lifelong investigator of human nature. I met Geoffrey at a dinner party hosted by a Blue Man and curated by an adventuresome scholar of the brain- expressly for the purpose of discussing the future of intimacy.
