Hello, Lee Noto.
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Lee: And that’s a part of what my mentality around love and attracting ideal partners into my life has been, is that when I go into the moments of wondering why they’re not quite here yet, or where are they? I’m like, All right, well what is it that I could be doing that I would want them to be doing right now? Is it making me a nice meal? Is it taking me out? Is it setting the scene to have a self-pleasure practice that’s not like a Wham Bam, thank you, ma’am, kind of thing. Like, let me light the candles. Let me make a playlist. Let me get the coconut oil and essential oils out. Let me not cut any corners with myself because if I cut corners with myself, someone might cut corners with me and I might allow it.
O Patrons, my Patrons, welcome in to part two of my conversation with sensuality specialist Lee Noto: Pleasure Guide, Tantrika, Intimacy Coach.
In the first part of our conversation, episode 70. tiger mom: horizontal with a recovering perfectionist, we two recovering perfectionists talked about slow-going sex and celibacy, plant medicine journeys and masturbation, objectifying yourself and faking orgasms, promiscuity as rebellious self-expression, pushing buttons just to know what they’re for, the glorious practice of bragging, Lee’s Tiger Mom, and how she drove herself to perfection so hard that her face paralyzed itself to get her attention.
In this part of our conversation, we dig in. We discuss masturbating with intention, receiving oral sex, receiving in general, giving yourself what you wish for a partner to give you, fantasies of auto-cunnilingus, the indefinable mystery of tantra, red tantra, white tantra, urban tantra, a tantric temple called The Women of Venus, Mama Gena’s practices of Trinities, Swamping, and Spring Cleaning, the stigma around sex work, one-way touch, approaching genitals with reverence, and a toxic guru cult relationship.
Also in this episode, Lee & I do something unprecedented on the podcast, and something I’ve never heard recorded anywhere else: we each do a Spring Clean on a topic we’re genuinely struggling with right now, in real time, stream of consciousness style. When I send editing notes to Chad Michael Snavely, my editor, I usually shorten pauses and cut ums and flubs and unnecessary sentences for flow. But I have left our Spring Cleans entirely unedited, because I want you to get a feel for what it’s like to release in that torrential, uncensored way. I am a little bit nervous to share it, actually, especially because of what came up about my insecurities and my lover, but that’s when I know I have something really worthwhile to reveal.
Circle of Trust. Image by Valerie Zimmer Photography.
Remember that on Thursday night, March 28th, I’m leading The Art of Trust: an Intimacy Games Workshop. We will play a lot of the games from my Intimacy Warriors photoshoots, such as Sphinx, Hot Seat, Human Conveyor Belt, and the Touch Gauntlet. The details are coming very soon, and if I owe you a ticket or two to a live event, you can cash in then!
All right, horizontal lovers.
Come lie down with us again in Brooklyn, New York.
horizontal with Lee in her apartment. Brooklyn, NY. February 2019
Links to Things:
Become a patron of the horizontal arts and get grandfathered in with access to The Full Horizontal (all the episodes, including THIS ONE) for $5+ per month (before the tiers go up)!
For all things Lee, including her Intimacy Coaching practice, visit her at leenoto.com
Lee’s upcoming event on Saturday, March 16th, Eating Out: An Erotic Feast
Mama Gena’s School of Womanly Arts, where countless women have reclaimed the power of pussy and learned tools for emotional release like swamping and spring cleaning
The book that began Lee’s exploration of Tantra: Urban Tantra: Sacred Sex for the 21st century by Barbara Carrellas
The Women’s Wisdom Circle, aka Women’s Financial Circle, or Sister’s of Abundance, a “gifting circle” pyramid scheme that preys on a longing for sisterhood. Lila almost joined one.
Where you can hire a professional cuddler.
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to this website or my Patreon!):
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[4:35] Lila’s breakthrough in “using her words” about oral sex.
Lila: You can’t use your words until you identify what it is that is actually really good for you and what is that actuallyturns you on. And I had a big breakthrough with my ex Alex, who at first I just didn’t even like him going down on me, and I, know myself to be a person who thinks that, receiving oral sex is the best thing in the world. And it took me till muchlater to deeply enjoy penetration. So… the fact that I wasn’t enjoying it, from him was something about the way that he was doing it and the way that we were interacting as he was doing it. And we had a, a shifting point, a turning point. When I realized that his tongue felt pointy and I don’t like it, I don’t like it when the tongue feels pointy on my clit, it doesn’t, it’s not good for me. I realized that I, I wanted — and then I was able to ask him for because I didn’t have the thing to ask for before that. So I couldn’t use my words cause I didn’t know what to use the words on. […] But I wanted a broad, generous tongue, like that’s what would it feel good, for me. Like a broad paintbrush.
Lee: Yes. Oh my God. What a breakthrough.
Lila: It was huge. […] And then he was able to make me come and it changed.
Lee: So he was able to make you come through oral sex?
Lila: Yes.
Lee: I have never, had an orgasm through oral sex.
Lila: (sympathetically) Nooo.
Lee: Yeah.
Lila: That was my first orgasm with another human being touching me, interacting with me, physically.
Lee: Wow.
Lila: It’s when I was (Lee sighs) 16, maybe 17. (pause) Never had an orgasm from oral sex!
Lee: Yeah. I can’t say that I have a great relationship —at least as I perceive it at the moment — with receiving oral sex. There’s, there’s still a lot that I’m unpacking.
[6:48] Did Lee continue to have sexual interactions with women?
Lee: I have had a handful over the years, with women, but it’s not really consistent, it’s not something that’s consistent now, and it’s not that I wouldn’t, I’m open to it, I just find myself really gravitating toward the male form.
Lila: I have almost identical … a story about that, you know, where very early experiences of play was with another girl and then I just was really attracted to boys and, didn’t kiss a girl again until maybe I was… 15 and then not again until I was… 20… 22, maybe 23… and then not again until I think my, my thirties or something. But I’ve had more interactions with women in the, in my thirties than I had ever, sexually. And… I just don’t usually, you know, meet a woman and think, Mmm, I’m really turned on by you. That doesn’t happen a lot. It does happen sometimes.
Lee: Mmhm, same.
Lila: It does happen sometimes. I remember actually, a woman who came up and talked to me after my yoga class and I smelled her and I was like, (little gasp, then whispering) You’re attracted to her! Oh, don’t say anything, don’t say anything! She’s your yoga student; don’t say anything! And you have no idea what’s going on with her. And so because I’m not— my proclivity is not so strong in that direction, I would be very unlikely to go after something like that or to take a risk in the realm of something with women. But it’s very interesting to me that before you said in this conversation that you’d never had an orgasm from oral sex. I was like, What would it be like to go down on Lee? (laughs)
[8:57] Lee’s recent fantasy of auto-cunnilingus.
Lee: It’s so interesting because I had this— okay, so, I had this visualization the other day, and this is kind of in the realm of what you’re saying. It was the first time I had reintroduced my self-pleasure practice after choosing celibacy, like no sexual activity—
Lila: For how long?
Lee: Uhhh, it was about two months. It was a pretty brief stint.
Lila: So this is the first time that you chose to self-pleasure after that.
Lee: Yeah. And I set intentions before every self-pleasure practice, now.
Lila: Wow.
Lee: It’s, yeah, it’s nice. Sometimes the intention is to come, simply, but this one, because it was my first time back, I was like, wow, you know, I, I really deserve to receive this pleasure. (Lila takes a deep sensual breath) And it was all about receiving. And because I wasn’t going into sexual fantasy land during this stint of celibacy, I thought, well maybe I won’t travel somewhere. In my mind with a man right now. I was like, all right, well I don’t what would turn me on. And I literally imagined, another version of me eating myself out.
Lila: Amazing.
Lee: As soon as that thought came into my head, I was like, oh my God, that’s so hot! (Lila laughs) What is going on here?
Lila: I just pictured it too and it sounds really hot.
Lee: — and then I climaxed and like, like. I burst it was because it was like this me giving myself pleasure and having this sustainable source of, like orgasmic bliss.
Lila: Whoa, I am gona go home and think about that!
Lee: Yeah. And then also receiving from myself.
Lila: Right! And you knew that you were for your pleasure, so you never had to worry about this fantasy version of yourself not, you know, not being fulfilled because you know that you want to give you pleasure.
Lee: Right. I’m gonna do it all.
Lila: And you’re all for that. You’re all in, literally as the giver and the receiver of pleasure.
[11:03] Lee & Lila on giving to ourselves what we wish for a man to give us.
Lee: And that’s a part of what my mentality around love and attracting ideal partners into my life has been, is that when I go into the moments of wondering why they’re not quite here yet, or where are they? I’m like, all right, well what is it that I could be doing that I would want them to be doing right now? Is it making me a nice meal? Is it taking me out? Is it, setting the scene to have a self-pleasure practice that’s not like a Wham Bam, you know, thank you, ma’am, kind of thing. Like, let me light the candles. Let me make a playlist. Let me get the coconut oil and essential oils out. Let me not cut any corners with myself because if I cut corners with myself, someone might cut corners with me and I might allow it.
Lila: I had that revelation at burning man that I wanted to do the things — it came to me actually through another person —Eamon. Eamon Armstrong was saying, “I am giving to myself what I’ve been seeking for a woman to give me.” And, the other night I wasn’t hearing back from Anthony and I wanted his attention. I wanted, I wanted and I was doing a little bit of the spinout, the going down the rabbit hole that I do when, when there’s been more communication and then there’s less, and I feel.. What’s happening, you know, is he with another lover is like the number one thing, you know? Okay. Maybe he’s with the lover that he has in Miami or maybe… whatever, you know, maybe he’s not, not where I am with it, maybe, maybe… whatever, maybe maybe maybe maybe. And so I wanted to put a soft cushion under my fall down this rabbit hole. And so I put one hand over my heart and the other hand over my pussy and I just like— and I thought, do I want to masturbate? And then I thought, no, I don’t. I want to be held. So I’m gonna hold, the parts of myself that I can hold. And I did and my nervous system regulated. […] And then I was able to go to sleep with almost no anxiety or maybe it was gone.
[13:40] Lee’s Tantra origin story.
Lee: The first I’d ever heard of it was, you know, through magazines and books and, I can’t really confirm whether those sources as I was reading them were authentic. You know, a lot of what we receive here in the West is very westernized. And even in, my practice now, when I share, about the work I do, I’m becoming less and less attached to the word Tantra. Because I want to make sure that I’m not appropriating… something that I, have, very little knowledge of compared to— and you know what, maybe not even a comparison, but you know, just something that I’m still really, really exploring. And so..
Lila: But then who would be qualified. Are the only people who are qualified, the people who grew up in India… you know what I mean?
Lee: Yeah. I’m, I’m still something I’m really reconciling. Yeah. I’m really exploring that space. But as I came into it as an adult, I rediscovered it when I was with this last partner that ended up moving to California. And I knew that I needed to find a way to approach our sexuality with either more compassion or creativity. And so I started looking into Tantra. He’d mentioned that while he lived in Thailand, he did a Tantra workshop. I was like, I’ve heard that word before. I loosely know what it’s about. And so I started looking for books and the book that I, that resonated the most with me when I was reading the descriptions was Urban Tantra: Sacred Sex for the 21st century by Barbara Carrellas. So I bought the book and I was in love and I, you know, enjoy her approach because it’s very accessible and it’s not shrouded in dogma and it’s… there’s humor in it. And I love that.
[17:54] Lila asks Lee to define Tantra.
Lee: What I can say that it has meant for me in my life is… a presence, a slowing down. It has very much meant a slowing down for me. And, you know, quite literally Tantra is, means, to weave or to loom. Like a loom. But what I’ve made it mean in my life is a presence with a slowing down, an acknowledgment. A beingness, either with self or with other, that acknowledges and sees… that being. Authentically for who that person is. And that’s what I’ve experienced when I have framed something as a, a tantric experience for myself.
Lila: Yeah. It still feels so intangible. Yeah. And I, I can imagine people saying, But what is it? But what is it? Is it a frame for your awareness that has you savoring everything? Is it… What is it?
Lee: There’s a part of me that really wants to know how to define it and wants to be able to speak to it academically so that I can say, I know what Tantra is and there’s a part of me that relishes in the unknowingness of it because how could it really be defined? Tantra to me feels like a woman, like, just never-ending. Infinite. Can never really be defined; can never fully be known. And it’s, that, you, makes it all the more intangible. And I almost don’t feel the need to be in pursuit of defining it.
Lila: It seems to be— because I still wanna define it. (both laugh) A web of interrelated practices, that call us to a heightened savoring attention of our experience.
Lee: Yes. I, I like the way that feels and what it has also meant for me is the acknowledgement that through sexual energy, through this life force creative energy, there is a way to God or source, or that which is greater, however you want to refer to it. And if that’s something that you know, people even believe in. For me, I have certainly experienced what feel like moments greater than me in that awareness. You know, I’ve, I’ve had very tantric feeling experiences in self-pleasure where I am so present and so there in the moment, sensation is heightened, I am savoring and enjoying, and I have climaxed and then burst into tears immediately after and it’s this huge emotional release, and then laughed the next moment, and then laughed and cried at the same time, and then took a break and then would go for round two. And it’s this like oscillation between all of these states of being and simultaneous states of being,
Lila: And it’s characterized by fluidity. It seems. By an ease.
[22:00] Lee on the beginning of her journey into the the Women of Venus collective.
Lila: So you met this group of women, what were they called?
Lee: The Women of Venus.
Lila: And you were so inspired by their, their beingness, that you wanted to, you know, have what they’re having basically.
Lee: Yes. Oh, I’ll have what they’re having, please.
Lila: And then what’s the journey of you… becoming a part of, of their business?
Lee: (sigh) Oh. Wow. Throughout the entire time, there was this, adoration of this whole other way of living, this empowered, transparent, communicative way of living. That, to my knowledge was founded on sisterhood and alternate paradigms. […] Things that were departures from toxic patriarchy.
[23:01] Some of the practices Lee did with the Women of Venus that transformed her experience of life.
Lila: Had you already known about Mama Gena’s work with her Sister Goddesses and, empowering women to step into their pleasure?
Lee: No. I learned about all of that, most of it through—
Lila: The Women of Venus.
Lee: Exactly. I’ve learned many techniques in communication, in ways of being, in ways of expressing through this apprenticeship. I’m forever grateful for the experience that I got to have.
Lila: Can you share one of them? One of the ways that it changed your communication, or?
Lee: Yes. Every time at the start of a shift we would journal and we would write down things like our intentions, our brags, our breakthroughs, and we would share that with another, with another woman. And it was… really a shift in my way of operating to be seen by someone in my brags or to even be encouraged to brag about something— that was what you were referring to before. That was huge for me. Or to share intentions, to share breakthroughs and to know that there was going to be someone on the other side waiting to hear from me about it.
Lila: I love that she calls it a holy trinity. I love that she calls it a trinity. Yeah. And I have brought it into so many scenarios. We did it at Thanksgiving. We went around the table full of 20 and first did gratitudes cause that’s natural on Thanksgiving. And then I invited people to do a brag or breakthrough and an intention or wish. And it was so gorgeous. It’s probably my favorite Thanksgiving that I’ve had, because of that experience. And I’ll, I’ll, I’ll bring it in, you know (giggles) and Leandra never wants to do it. And then she’s always happy that she did it afterwards because it really does juice you up. It’s amazing!
trinity (noun) = a practice, created by Mama Gena in her work with her School of Womanly Arts, of sharing 1) a gratitude, 2) a brag or breakthrough, and 3) an intention or wish.
Lee: Yeah. So what I found in this apprenticeship was that it was an amalgamation of techniques from different places and credit was always given where credit was due.
Lila: So can you give me the recipe?
Lee: Okay. So there was a lot of stuff from Mama Gena, including the holy trinity and swamping.
Lila: And swamping, which I’ve done once, is essentially an emotional release technique where you use props and dance. And the only rule is that you continuously move, and somebody DJs you through an emotional release, essentially.
Lee: Right. I’ve done it where I’ve done it on my own and I simply texted someone to let them know when I would be concluding the swamp, so that somebody was there making sure I wasn’t falling down a rabbit hole—
Lila: That’s so good.
Lee: — into emotional release land. […]
Lila: It’s like having the safety buddy to make sure you got home.
swamping (verb) = engaging in a practice, created by Mama Gena in her work with her School of Womanly Arts, of emotional release of the sticky, stuck, “negative” emotions through a DJ’d movement journey using available props, like a garbage bag, pillows, pool noodles. Typically guided by a facilitator, who can check in to see if the participants need, for instance, another anger song, it concludes by bringing the participants back into their turn-on with sexy music, thereby, bringing them up out of the “swamp.”
[25:58] The Mama Gena practice of spring cleaning.
Lila: So from Mama Gena, you did, you did trinities and swamping and also spring cleaning, right?
Lee: Spring cleaning. Huge breakthrough around spring cleaning. […] I would discover so much about myself and spring cleaning essentially is a place to really just let everything out. And someone witnesses you in that and you know, they might come into the conversation and say, “Welcome to your spring clean. What would you like to spring clean on?” And I might say “Anger,” or, “The fact that I just got a parking ticket,” you know. You can choose anything. They might say, “Okay, you have seven pulls,” or seven rounds to release, and it’s basically seven streams of consciousness through this topic, which may or may not stay that topic through the entire spring clean; it can evolve. And it’s just an emptying, a complete emptying out of the vessel through words.
Lila: And whenever I’ve done it with Mirelle, at the point when there’s a period on the end of the sentence and a breath in, when the stream has, has dried up and, and she’s ready to offer me a pull, she’ll say “Thank you.” (Lee mmhms) “What do you have on the, fill in the blank? The topic that I initially said that I wanted to spring clean on. […] Do you have anything we could spring clean on now?
spring cleaning (noun) = a practice, created by Mama Gena in her work with her School of Womanly Arts, of emotional release, by choosing a topic that is troubling you to speak on, stream of consciousness-style, witnessed by another person who holds space for you. Typically, when the stream of consciousness comes to a pause, the person holding space will give a “pull” by saying, “Thank you. What do you have on ________ (the topic you are spring cleaning on)?” Most often, there are 7 pulls / 7 rounds to release.
Lee: Ooh. Wow. So I’m going to be the emptying out?
Lila: Are you open to it?
Lee: Yeah. Yes. Oh my God; I’m thrilled. I’m delighted. (a small sigh and a pause) What’s coming up for me is something around sexuality, sexual pleasure, receiving…
Lila: Mm. Mm.
Lee: Worthiness.
Lila: Receiving. That, that is something that resonates with me; not that that’s the one you have to choose, but, but it’s actually a word that I was thinking as you were talking about, about oral sex and, and not having come from it.
Lee: That’s what’s coming up for me. Okay.
A Queen, horizontal, before recording this episode.
[28:10] Lila holds space for Lee to spring clean on receiving. She offers Lee’s first pull.
Lila: Lee. I am honored to hold space for you to spring clean today… And I’m told that you would like to spring clean on receiving. Lee, what do you have on receiving?
Lee: I have that, it has felt very challenging for me to receive because… I have for many years not felt worthy of receiving. And if I’m not doing to prove my worthiness… then how? How could I be fit to receive? (quiet sigh)
[29:01] Lila offers Lee’s second pull.
Lila: Thank you. What do you have on receiving?
Lee: (beat) It’s sometimes feels anxious for me to receive. It feels uneasy. Eh, it— Hmm. I feel a lot coming up in my body. Right now. Hmm. (long pause)
[29:41] Lila offers Lee’s third pull.
Lila: (quietly) Thank you. Lee, what do you have on receiving?
Lee: (pause) I’d like to receive. I really would like to receive and, since creating that intention in my, in my self pleasure practice a few sessions ago, I’ve asked for opportunities to receive and, unsurprisingly, opportunities in my life have showed up for me to receive. And I’m really trying my best now that when someone offers to pay for something or offers me a gift or a compliment, that I receive it without needing to feel guilty.
[30:32] Lila offers Lee’s fourth pull.
Lila: Thank you. This is your fourth pull. Lee, what do you have on receiving?
Lee: I deserve to receive pleasure. I really deserve to receive pleasure and I feel sad that I have… been prohibitive in the receiving of pleasure throughout my life. And I also know that at some points I didn’t quite have the language to request pleasure and I’m learning that now and I know that I deserve to receive and I know that I have language to ask for how I, I’d like to receive pleasure and it feels a little scary for me to think that I— could be using that language with my next partner. (pause)
[34:41] Lila offers Lee’s fifth pull.
Lila: Thank you. But what do you have on receiving?
Lee: Sometimes for me the receiving is in not receiving. I think of someone that I have recently entered into relating with and, for me right now receiving means receiving space, and receiving time and receiving compassion in my choices around my sexuality and… it feels like I’m, I’m really learning how to receive from myself more than anything, and that, in learning how to receive from myself, I can learn how to receive from another. (pause)
[32:38] Lila offers Lee’s sixth pull.
Lila: Thank you. What else do you have on receiving?
Lee: (deep breath) If the thing that I have prided myself on for all of my life is giving, then learning how to receive seems pretty vital, if I am, viewing those things as two sides of the same coin. And I think about the gift that I receive when someone allows me to give to them and it’s such a gift when someone fully receives me, or receives a compliment or something that I’m offering and it would really seem like a short circuit for them to turn it away. And so for me to turn away something that someone is trying to give me, robs them of the gift of giving to me and if I love giving so much (pause) and it, it seems almost short-sighted and I wouldn’t allow myself the practice of receiving. (long pause)
[33:53] Lila offers Lee’s seventh pull.
Lila: Thank you. This is your last pull. Lee, what do you have on receiving?
Lee: (long exhale) Hmm….. I’m ready to receive. I don’t always know how it’s gonna happen. I don’t always know what my reaction is going to be or what my emotional state’s going to be or if I’ll even recognize the opportunity to receive. I simply know that I can really say I’m ready and it doesn’t mean that I don’t feel scared or anxious about it because a lot of times I do, but when I say I’m ready, it’s that I know I deserve to receive. I know I deserve to receive pleasure. I know I deserve to receive love. I know I deserve to receive healthy communication, from people. I know I deserve to receive, a shit ton of money! (Lila chuckles) and opportunities to collaborate, and I deserve to receive, like the ability to see myself in all of my beauty and, yeah, I really want to take that on.
[35:27] Lila offers Lee a “bonus” pull.
Lila: Thank you for allowing me to hold this space for you. Lee. Do you feel complete or would you like a bonus pull? (both giggle)
Lee: Hmm. (long sigh) Yeah, let’s go with the bonus pull.
Lila: Lee, this is your bonus pull. (both giggle) What else do you have on receiving?
Lee: The question I have is like: what kinds of things could I discover about myself in receiving? Like, what could I give myself permission to do or by showing up in graceful receiving, what might that open up for other people? What might it give other people permission to do and like have I been… essentially like robbing myself or almost doing a disservice by short circuiting an exchange through not receiving something, whether that be energetically or verbally or emotionally or physically. I’m just really excited to open myself up to what’s possible when I can play with this energy of receiving. (long pause)
Lila: Thank you.
Lee: Thank you.
Lila: Do you feel complete?
Lee: Yeah.
[37:22] Lee holds space for Lila to spring clean on being chosen.
Lila: (sighs) I thought that I just wanted you to do one, and now I realize I want to do one too.
Lee: Oh my gosh. I’d be honored.
Lila: I feel inspired, and I also feel an edginess around it and I want to move into that edginess, of sharing the stream of consciousness with people who are listening. Because, as you may have noticed, I take time to compose my words. I try to choose the exact precise right word that I mean. So to let myself prrrrr! and to allow people to witness that is, is an edge for me. So let’s do it. […] I think I’d like to spring clean on being chosen.
[38:10] Lee offers Lila her first pull.
Lee: Being chosen. Mmm. Okay. Lila, welcome to your spring cleaning, on being chosen. This is your first pull. What do you have on being chosen?
Lila: I have a fear that, that I’m not going to the, the chosen one for a partner by— I, I won’t be chosen by somebody that I choose, that there will be that mutual choosing, that somebody won’t will make me the the highest priority, the most important in their life. That I, could have, their focus and that they would look across humanity and say, No, I choose this person. I, I want that feeling. And then there’s so many people who say, “Well, you have to choose yourself.” And I’ve been working on it and I dochoose myself! I do choose myself and I choose my experience and I, I do choose myself and adorn myself and love myself and self pleasure. And I (long whoosh of an exhale) have so much charge around, around being chosen, that I think it has made me very monogamously-thinking because I want to feel so important to someone that they would choose me. And I think we can go, we can go and say that, that this is, you know, a self worth and a, a worthiness issue that, you know, I’m wanting somebody to choose me, but I’m, I’m doing all the things, I’m doing all the good things in the world and for myself and for myself— (under the breath) Okay. I could be doing better at self care, but, I am doing things. I don’t need that approval or validation to do my work in the world. But I just think I would have a greater wellbeing, a greater quality of life if I felt— and I’ve really never felt it. So if I felt it, then maybe I would be more open to, sex with other people or maybe it would be more open to different relationship styles. I think I just want that, the daily, feeling— and of course it changes at some point, but like the daily feeling, like somebody wakes up and says, “Yeah, I want to be with you. I want to be with you. I want to be, with you. I want to be with you.”
[40:44] Lee offers Lila a second pull.
Lee: Thank you. What do you have on being chosen?
Lila: (heavy sigh) I’m afraid that people that I date, will always have something that is going to take precedence, over me. And some of this comes from people directly telling me that. I had this boyfriend named Christopher who was a lawyer who flat out categorically stated, “My work is the most important thing. It will always be the most important thing.” He basically was like, “It will always be more important than you. I will always choose work over you.” And it seems like maybe there could be a little bit more of a balance? Right? Like at some point if I needed emotional support or if I was having, a breakdown or like that, that then I could be the priority maybe. But no, I knew that that wasn’t the case with him because he flat-out told me. And I wonder about this balancing of priorities.
[Note: Lila is no longer speaking about the lawyer here.]
Now she’s speaking about this man: Mr. Miami. The Design District. Miami, Florida. February 2019
I, this man has children and the, and the one like contentious thing that we had during this trip was that after sex, a really beautiful sexual encounter with him. He got up— I, oh no. I got up to pee and then he got up and when I came back to bed hoping to like, be held and literally with his juices still inside me, still inside me because he’s had a vasectomy and, has been tested and so we weren’t using condoms and I was very much enjoying that, and I’ve never had that experience without worry. And that was absolutely delightful and delicious to have that experience without worry. He’s literally still inside of me, but he’s on his phone talking to his daughter about spring break! And I’m like, (makes deflating balloon noises) you know, and I, I felt so deflated and abandoned and I was like, Do you need? In my head, I was like, Do you need to do that right now? Like right now you need to talk to her about spring break?! And then, you know, it wasn’t too long. And then eventually he came back to bed. But at that point I had already gotten under the covers, put one hand over my pussy because I wanted that aftercare. Pulled the cover up over my face, up to my forehead, and was quietly crying. Like didn’t full out cry, didn’t like give that to him, didn’t, was afraid to, to show that I was so upset about this, small? I dunno, about this thing that I was so upset that he got up after sex and was texting his daughter and then, he kind of stroked me and he would try. He tried to gently pull the, the cover down. I kept over my face over my face and he didn’t try again. He just kind of like touched me and stroked me and cradled me and, and I think eventually I just fell asleep. Yeah. And then we had a beautiful day. Lovely. I went— first, I had like a little solo adventure or went to to Whole Foods and I, and I bought ingredients for him to make me dinner that night. And then I went to, to Lincoln, and I strolled around and found that beautiful origami jungle installation and, and then came back and he was already like in the kitchen making me dinner, which is such a turn on and so lovely. And we had a, we had a margarita and then we took bikes and we rode bikes over to The Standard and watched sunset and had happy hour at The Standard. And then we biked back together and then, you know, sat down to this delicious homemade spaghetti and meatballs that he had made gluten and dairy free for me. And his daughter calls and he’s like, “I’m sorry, she never calls me,” and he picks up the phone and starts talking to his daughter.
[44:40] And I feel the, the residual resentment from the morning, of him not staying with me and prioritizing a texting conversation that didn’t seem to me to be very pressing or urgent, rather than being with me, just-fucked-me, by him, you know, in bed. And I just like went stony because, in my worst moments when I am upset, I stonewall and I ice over and ice people out. And I’m not proud of it and it’s obviously a defense and a coping mechanism, and I was afraid to tell him that I was upset and I was still upset from the morning and also, you know, like of course it’s no big deal. He picks up the phone, talks to his daughter for five minutes at the beginning of dinner and I didn’t think that that should be anything that upset me. And so because I didn’t think that I should be upset, I didn’t want to tell him. I wanted to try and regulate my nervous system on my own and just come back to him, well-resourced and without, without the charge, without the upsetness.
[45:49] But I couldn’t do it really. I was just upset and he could feel it and he was like, “What’s going on? Something happened,” and, I wouldn’t tell him. And we finished dinner and, and then sat on the couch and he’s like, “Are you going to at some point tell me, because then I’m just going to make an assumption. And you know, I noticed that it happened right after I talked to my daughter,” and I said, “Yeah.” And I said it, you know, “it reminded me of, of this, that happened, and I still feel some charge around that. I still feel upset about that.” And he’s like, “Well, I can see, I can see how you would feel that way.” And then he was like, but this is, you know, “This is my daughter; this is my family. These are the— there’s no question. Like I will always pick up the phone.”
[46:32] “If I was in the middle of sex, I would pick up the phone if I saw it. And, y’know, no question. Like num—” And what I heard was: number one priorities, number one priorities forever. Of course, they should be, I wouldn’t want to be— interrelated with a man who had children who didn’t treat them as precious priorities for him in his life. And we did unpack it a little bit. And he said, “You know, I, it would be the same thing if I was with my daughter and the love of my life called. I would pick up the phone,” you know, and I felt embarrassed. I felt ashamed for feeling so upset and I was like, I’m gonna ruin everything.
[47:20] Lee offers Lila her third pull.
Lee: Thank you. (loooooong exhale from Lila) This is your third pull. What do you on have being chosen?
Lila: I have that: I don’t want to be competing with anybody or anything to feel chosen. I don’t, I do think it’s possible to feel chosen when somebody has other things that are really important to them. Also, I would never want to be with somebody who didn’t have things that were extremely vitally important to them in their lives and people who were extremely vitally important to them in their lives. And so the day after that— we wound up watching Black Monday and, having a giggle and, and then he fell asleep on my lap and the next morning I think we, we had some really sweet sex and then, he sent me over to the Fountainbleu to the hotel where we were going to stay for two days. But he didn’t wind up coming. He was gonna come later that night and his mom had an issue, and he needed to go and and be with his mother and I, understood that and also felt really bummed because I was looking— so looking forward to his company and especially like in this fancy, place, you know, by myself with no one to enjoy it with but me and sure it’s, it’s fun, a little bit, by yourself, but really I wanted to share that experience with him and he had provided that experience so I was really excited to share it with him.
Solo and horizontal at the Fountainebleu. January 2019
[48:49] I understood that he needed to go see his mother, but I was also very, you know— it was these three things that I was like, Oh, ennh! I don’t know if this is, is this unraveling; is this falling apart? Have I already ruined it? What’s happening? and at— just little bit after he told me he wasn’t coming and my friend Becca texted me— and Becca and I rarely talk. We’ve been friends for… 11 years. We used to be AcroYoga co-teachers and I talked to her before I— we texted before I went to Miami and she just texted me, at that moment, to say, how is it? And I was like, “Becca, can you talk on the phone?” And she said, “Yes, actually. I’m about to get in my car and I need to switch to, to the phone anyway. So I, had walked all the way down the boardwalk, 40 minutes to this place, and then I walked all the way back up on the sidewalk, talking to her and having this conversation and unpacking these triggers of: (sigh) what is important to people that I want to be important to and: family. The fact that I don’t have siblings like that, I don’t have children, I don’t have people really that I, I have that, just like unconditional. Absolutely. You know, the minute they call I would pick up and she said, “But do you have friends that are like that? Like, if Leandra called you and she was having a panic attack and the situation was reversed and he was in your city and you had rented a hotel room, would you not go and, and take care of her?” And I said, “Of course I would. Like unquestioningly. Absolutely.” And she’s like, “That’s exactly how he is with his family. ‘Of course I would, absolutely, unquestioningly,’ and that’s what he was telling you. So you have that in your life,” she said, and I was like, “I do.” (sighs aloud) And of course, somebody who is that way about their people, is the kind of person who’s people I would want to be. So, there’s no (laughs in absurdity) that doesn’t make any sense at all to, to be upset or, or resentful.
[51:10] Lee offers Lila her fourth pull.
Lee: Hmm. Thank you. What do you have on being chosen?
Lila: I have that as an actress, I was, rarely, chosen, for anything I actually really wanted to do. And so I have maybe, a, a memory in my body of showing up and giving my my best, opening myself the most that I possibly could, performing to the highest level that I was capable of, and receiving nothing in return. And not being chosen and, you know, very occasionally would find out that I was too young or too old or too, too too, too too, too whatever. And I gave up on my acting career.
[52:12] Lee offers Lila her fifth pull.
Lee: Mm. Thank you. This is your fifth pull. What do you have on being chosen?
Lila: I have that when I feel chosen, there’s like a little, a little hearth inside me, that, warms me as I go around through my day. And I’ve only had little, little glimpses of it, but it was, mmmm, it was so relaxing and, it was kind of, I guess what the, the Germans talk about with what they try to give their children: roots and wings. It’s like I had those things and then a warmth and I can’t even, I can’t even give you like a time that I remember feeling that, but. I think it has happened?
[53:21] Lee offers Lila her sixth pull.
Lee: Thank you. What do you have on being chosen?
Lila: Mmmmmhmmmmmmmmmmm: I have that I feel frustrated that the same, same issue comes up over and over and over and over and over again in my life. Like, haven’t I dealt with my self-worth issues enough? Like haven’t I done enough work to me to be in a better place and to, to have a different floor underneath me, a different foundation underneath me, that I, should still be, grappling with, whether I’m going to be wonderful enough to be chosen by a man that I choose.
[54:25] Lee offers Lila her 7th pull.
Lee: Thank you. This is your final pull. What do you have on being chosen?
Lila: (laughing through the word “I”) I! I have that I’m afraid that he’s going to listen to this (laughing) and it’s going to ruin things! Clearly there’s something around “ruining things” that I might need to spring clean (laughing through the rest of the sentence) on as well. Ahh, what do I have? What do I have on being chosen? I remember, Susie Winson, who owns the Circus Warehouse, talking to her about this years ago, and she said, “Somebody has to like you best and you have to let them.” And that’s what I’m thinking about. (pause) Somebody has to like me best. There probably are lots of people who would choose me. But: it’s not feeling chosen if I don’t choose them. So I have to, let them, if… it’s a person I want. Somebody has to like me best and I have to let them.
[55:56] Lee offers Lila a bonus pull.
Lee: Thank you. Do you feel complete, or would you like a bonus pull?
Lila: (giggles) I love the way that sounds, “bonus pull.” (long pause) I’m not sure! (giggles, long pause) I think I’ll take the bonus pull.
Lee: Okay. This is your bonus pull. What do you have on being chosen?
Lila: Recently people have asked me, if I thought that I was only going to meet the person when I was basically already making my TV show or something. Like I had to— be so, so fully in my power and element before I would, actually get to, meet this person and I said, “Well I ho—” Did I say that? But I hope not! I hope, I hope it doesn’t, require that. I don’t have to earnsomebody choosing me with my TV series. Do you know what I mean? I don’t wanna, Ohh, I don’t want to have to try and earn it. I don’t want to perform. It would be so beautiful to be seen … and chosen. Seen for all of the ways in which I struggle and all of the ways in which I triumph and chosen, all, wholly.
Lee: Thank you.
Lila: I feel complete. And scared. (laughs)
[57:55] Lee & Lila close out the spring cleaning with a round of gratitudes.
Lee: Mmmnn… Shall we wrap up with a gratitude?
Lila: Mmm! That’s, so good. Yes.
Lee: Yeah, um. I’m grateful for this process and for the fact that you had this idea, and were willing to hold space for me, and I’m grateful for, the exploration in the concept of receiving because I feel as if I’ve only scratched the surface. So I’m grateful for what’s next.
Lila: I’m grateful for my bravery. I’m grateful for my willingness to, lead by example, not by preaching. And my ability to open, when I’m aware that so many struggle, so mightily to do so. […]
[59:08] Lila inquires deeper into The Women of Venus.
Lila: I want to know… You said very nice, things about how, being… a part of The Women of Venus grew you as a person and I believe it. And I also would like to know the real true experience of, of working there and being part of it.
Lee: Yeah. It’s very dynamic.
Lila: So first of all it’s— what exactly is it? What is, it’s a tantric temple? And what does that mean?
Lee: Yeah. Um, I guess that’s, that’s one way to put it. We called it a temple and we were trained and received certification and guidance in Reiki, deep tissue bodywork, aspects of white and red tantra, breathwork. Really the underpinning here was, working with sexual energy.
[1:00:25] What distinguishes white tantra from red tantra?
Lee: White tantra is nonsexual touch and red tantra is sexual touch.
Lila: Okay. But even with nonsexual touch— I assume you’re meaning non-erogenous-zone touch?
Lee: Yes. Like aspects of white Tantra can include but are not limited to eye gazing, synchronized breathing, handholding, heart to heart connection, etcetera.
[1:00:59] Lila experienced a bit of sensual massage utilizing sexual energy, with a tantrika. Lila and Lee on using imagination to direct the flow of sexual energy.
Lila: I remember I worked an event for Hacienda where we had a kink room and there were, you know, a bunch of things going on, some rope and some car buffering and some sensation play and some massage table stuff. And I did some four-handed massages with, one of The Women of Venus and then there was a lull and she said, “Do you want to get on the table?” And I was like, “Yehehhess!” And she would ask everybody, “Would you like sexual or nonsexual touch?” And I said, “I would like sexual touch,” but, but, I think she may be phrased it as intention. Because she was not touching my pussy. She was not touching my breasts. She was touching my back. And as soon as I declared that that was what I wanted, that that energy was what I wanted, and she almost, she very, very lightly brushed her fingertips along my back, in such a way that she was almost not touching me. And I got a like an undulating, chill, I guess, except it was hot. So it wasn’t really a chill. That ran through me and I could, I could very much feel— and I have a hard time believing things I can’t feel, so I could very much feel that she had turned, she had turned a switch, and she was deliberately running different energy through me then she had been a moment before.
Lee: Hmm. Yeah, there’s really something to that. What I’m experiencing right now is almost a loss of words for, how to describe some of this tangibly. Because I, I don’t like to listen to something that I, I can’t understand or that seems like it’s going in circles, and there is something that is very real about intention and using imagination to picture the flow of energy through someone’s body. And, we all have the ability to tap into deeply, sexual and creative parts of us through our imagination and imagination, even using the word imagination sounds almost as if it’s fictional— but it’s not fictional. And I’ve heard many accounts and have, actually tried using imagination in my own sexual practices — with partners or without partners — where I would imagine sexual energy or energy coursing from the genital region up to the heart. Or up to, you know, the third eye and it drastically shifts the experience and it can create deeper sensation, deeper pleasure for that partner, for myself.
Lila: I’ve done it while masturbating where I’ve been just very clit focused, super genitally focused, and will remind myself to feel into other parts of my body, and whether it was happening before or not, then I started to feel tingling in my torso. Then I could, I could feel it in other places with the thought that I was drawing it up towards my head. ‘Cause I think I read that once in a, in a Taoist sexual practices book. (both laugh)
[1:04:36] What service did they provide at the tantric temple? Let it be very clear that this was consensual work!
Lila: The practical experience is that this was a business in which, like a massage parlor, a client would come in for a service and would stay for an appointed amount of time, and would pay for that service and then would, leave the premises.
Lee: Yes.
Lila: And it was clandestine, a clandestine practice, like many massage parlors are.
Lee: Yeah.
Lila: And so people would find out about it through kinky websites or, or places like this.
Lee: Word of mouth, referral, websites. Yeah. This, you know, I, in being transparent, I feel a deep amount of anxiety in talking about this, with the possibility of knowing that people could hear it. You know, whether or not… that happens, because there is still very much a stigma and taboo around this work. And there are… unfortunately, so many instances where work like this happens and it’s nonconsensual.
Lila: Right.
Lee: And, we hear about trafficking all the time. We hear about the use of substances and drugs when people are engaging in acts of sexuality, especially if there’s an exchange of money. Uh, we hear about people doing things on willingly. […] And that’s, that’s all so. That is all happening right now.
Lila: Right. But let us be very clear that this is something that you chose to do, work that you enjoy doing.
Lee: And— yes. That I very much enjoy doing. And it was through this process that I, learned so much about releasing my own sexual shame. That it can be okay to like things like this. It can be okay to share in these experiences with people. Because, I created boundaries and because there were guidelines.
[1:06:44] What was the guideline that kept that practice safe for the practitioner?
Lee: There was really open communication amongst the women in this collective, and, when a client would, come in, it was all about receiving, so it wasn’t that the client was doing any giving, so to speak. It’s like: when you go for a massage—
Lila: One-way touch.
Lee: Exactly. When you go for massage, you’re not giving your masseuse a massage. You’re not doing anything. You’re laying there and you’re receiving. And so that was, that was really the main thing. And that’s where a lot of people struggle anyway is in receiving, and so to have someone create an experience for themselves of receiving, is really a gift.
Lila: I thought about, going. When I know there was briefly a male practitioner at The Women of Venus, I thought about going. I think it would have been really healing for me, because I’m very concerned about equitability ,and making sure that the other person also receives pleasure and, I’m aware of how much time, you know, is spent and that there is, there’s a, a fairness to it. So to make the fairness the: I’ve, I’ve paid to receive. You know, and then to allow myself to just receive and not make sure that they feel good while they are giving to me. ‘Cause I often pay so much attention to that— making them feel good while that— like stroking their hair while they’re going down on me or you know, not just going into my own, my own brain and my own experience.
Lee: Yeah. And I completely understand that. That was why I hired a professional cuddler at one point in my life to really learn how to receive without feeling like I needed to do something back at the same time. Or that I needed to do something back at all.
[1:08:39] What other boundaries and practices had Lee feeling safe as a practitioner?
Lee: There was always a permission-asking process and a consent process, that I learned a lot about while in my time with this collective, and, because we’re working with sexual energy, people become aroused and it’s a natural thing. You know, someone can become aroused in the subway, like, when we’re intentionally working with sexual energy and we have hands on bodies that happens.
Lila: It’s much more likely.
Lee: Right? Absolutely. And you know, there were times when, you know, that was a question for people like, “Hey, can I touch you?” Or, or there would be a reach. Like, there would be a reach as if like, that was just assumed that it was okay to like, grab my leg, or, you know, whatever it was. And so I felt a lot of safety in learning how to communicate my physical boundaries with someone without making them wrong.
Lila: How did you do it? What did you say?
Lee: It was essentially like a feedback sandwich. And so let’s give an example. Someone goes to grab for my leg. Or my hip. I might say, you know, “Thank you for your curiosity. And I’d really like if you ask permission before reaching to touch me.” And so it’s padded with a bit of acknowledgement and it, you know, I wasn’t saying thank you for anything that I wasn’t truly appreciative of. I wasn’t saying like, Ooh, thank you. I’m so turned on that you’re, I’m saying like, “Hey, thanks.” Or I might say like, “I see you’re curious. I’d really love if you ask permission before touching me,” or, you know, “What really turns me on is when someone asks for permission before touching me,” and to share that feedback with someone. And then creating a scenario— if it felt okay for me to try again — with them, asking permission and then me saying “Yes, I would like for you to put your hand right here,” and then placing their hand where I want it. You know, it might be on my upper thigh or something like that. Um, or saying, “You know what, right now I’d really love for you to receive. If there’s another opportunity for you to touch my leg, I’ll make sure I put your hand there.” Or something that validates the experience.
Lila: That desire.
Lee: Because of, you know, a huge part of what I learned is, especially around unraveling shame and sexuality, is that: people have felt this shame and rejection for so long and we can really start to untie that by saying like, “Okay, it’s not wrong.”
Lila: You don’t want to make them wrong for the desire.
Lee: Right. It’s not wrong that you want to touch my leg. Let’s just make sure that there’s some communication about it.
Lila: And that they’re checking in with you. You’re not an object; you’re a human and, […] So there might be scenarios in which the touch — in very specific ways — could be two-way, but with, with very well-defined and well-determined and consent-based communication.
[1:12:09] How to approach the genitals like a tantrika.
Lila: Part of the tantric arts, as you were saying were, was, red tantra is working with sexual organs. So: what did you learn that I might not know, just from giving, giving someone manual stimulation in my sexual life?
Lee: Hmm. The first way we would approach any sort of contact like that is with reverence. (Lila mms) Just reverence for this part of the body. And the fact that this is the physical seat of creation. […] For both men and women— the yoniand the lingam, you know, the pussy and the cock. So there was this reverence and this integration at the same time. And I’ll, I’ll tell you what I mean by that. First, the reverence was giving or channeling reiki to that part of the body. So just, you know—
Lila: And you mean loving energy?
Lee: Loving energy. Yes. Yeah. And just like hovering the hands over that area and setting an intention. And sometimes that, you know, for an advanced client, I don’t want to say advanced, but for someone who’s maybe done the work, or seems open to the idea, you know, asking if they have an intention that they want to set, or if there was somewhere they’d like to dedicate their pleasure to— somewhere or someone. And it can be a completely nonsexual thing that you’re dedicating energy to. […] Or pleasure to. You can dedicate pleasure to getting a job promotion. […] And so it is! You know, like—
Lila: I have masturbated to the thought of my TV show. (both laugh)
Lee: Excellent! Now we know it’s gonna happen. (both laugh) So that’s something that drastically shifts the context of a sexual interaction, that there is intentionality behind it. And then in the actual stimulation itself, understanding that there is a holistic approach. It’s not, you know, the pussy itself isn’t only the clit— the clit’s a magical part of the pussy. And stimulation of the entire vulva isn’t only getting fingered. You know, there, there is an entire anatomy […] that, you know, for me anyway, would love attention and conscientiousness. You know, my inner labia, my outer labia, my clitoris. Internal stimulation as well.
Lila: I really enjoy, and I didn’t realize this for, a long time. I enjoy stimulation around the entrance, around the introitus, around the entrance to the vagina, a lot. And I like for there to be very shallow and very gentle penetration with fingers before anything goes towards my g-spot, or goes deeper.
Lee: Right! And so that’s where like this reverence comes back in is like, Wow, this is really a sacred part of the body.And the body in and of itself is sacred. And, you know, with the lingam massage—
lingam massage (noun) = a massage of the penis, testicles, perineum, and sometimes includes the prostate.
Lila: It’s the sacred on the sacred.
Lee: It’s sacred on sacred on sacred. (both laugh)
Lee: With the lingam massage. And, and, you know, with the yoni as well, understanding that there are, pressure points, there are energy centers there that with stimulation can release energy, can release emotion, can release trauma.
[1:15:46] Lee on energy center on the penis and in the vagina.
Lila: Is there one in particular that you think of?
Lee: In my experience when I’ve received, and, and also when I’ve, when I’ve provided, uh, for women, that shallow area and it, you know, it’s, it’s approaching the g-spot, with a come here motion or a pressure on the, upper wall.
Lila: So the anterior wall, which is the wall that’s towards the front of the body, and you’re showing me about—
Lee: Like one knuckle in. That first knuckle.
Lila: While it’s still smooth and hasn’t gotten to the, the ridgy texture of the g-spot.
Lee: Right. I, have experienced emotional release in stimulation there. And I’ve ended up in tears. And you know, there’s plenty that I still have to learn about the… the ins and outs, the anatomy, the energy centers and trauma release points in and around our sexual organs. You know, I feel like I’ve only gotten to the tip of the iceberg. And you know, just in the experiential practice, I’ve gotten to observe what kinds of techniques stimulate people, and what feels good. It’s a, it’s an immediate cause and effect.
Lila: Can you identify a similar emotional release point on the cock or does it differ with every person?
Lee: Hmm. There seems to be a very sensitive area on the underside of the cock. There’s a ridge toward the head.
Lila: At the, at the base of the head you mean?
Lee: Yes, and with circular stimulation of the thumb or just the padding of the finger, there was a heightened sensitivity. And while I haven’t really seen a man end up in tears, there is certainly a bodily response, in that area. I have also, seen that happen with, stimulation of the perineum.
Lila: Which is the area between the genitals and the anus.
Lee: And there’s a lot of energy that’s stored there. And for a lot of people, there’s a lot of stuck energy there. Stuck sexual energy that’s wrought with shame and stories and history. And so, a lot of, you know, what I learned was that in the stimulation of that and the guidance of breath, we can actually move some of that energy up and through the body.
[1:18:36] Pamela’s advice to Lila on internal self-massage.
Lila: Pamela Samuelson, who does Take Back the Speculum has been my guest on the podcast.
[Note: Pamela’s episodes are… 50: your pussy is not a sheath: horizontal with a vagina whisperer, and 51. take back the speculum: horizontal with a modern rosie the riveter.]
She’s a, she does pelvic bodywork and internal bodywork for, for those with vulvas and vaginas. And, she recommended — and I and I still haven’t done it, but I really think I, I must — she recommended that I get in, I think it was a hot bath and use castor oil to massage my perineum and massage my internal walls of the vagina, the way that I would massage my calf.
[1:19:15] Massaging the genitals as we would other muscles which desire attention.
Lee: Yes. And that was a part of— so that was when I, when I had mentioned the reverence and then the integration. Treating this like any other muscle. There is this impression that, you know, we’ve got to just with a, a pussy just like, in-and-out, in-and-out, you know, like thrusting. And like that’s the thing. And that’s the only movement we can make! But there’s so much, you know, there’s, there are walls we can touch, you know, we can put our fingers sideways, we can use different strokes. And even with the cock, taking your hands and almost as if, you know, you’re circling your finger like, circling your finger up the underside of a cock, or even feeling with, even having, you know, a light grip on both sides of the cock and feeling it and rotating your fingers, like there’s this curiosity we can have that doesn’t necessarily have to evoke deep pleasure, but that can be simple stimulation of another muscle.
Lila: A massage-like sensibility, right? Because y— there’s so many different ways that you can massage and you can explore kneading and you can explore, twisting, and you can explore circular pressure. And you can explore playing piano and you can explore all different kinds.
[1:20:37] Lee on her reverence for her partner’s cock.
Lee: You know, as I take that into my personal life— in the partners that I’ve had that I’ve, you know, explored these techniques with, I have this feeling, and I don’t necessarily know what this is like for them. I haven’t really asked, but I have this feeling that, I so want to be there. I so want to explore and I am so curious about this part of a person’s body and I’m very curious about all parts of people’s bodies, but in a, you know, in a sexual act. That I just want them to know that I honor this part of them, that I, I hold it with such regard and respect and that I will do everything in my power to treat this part of their body as such. And that I’m so interested in their pleasure.
Lila: It makes sense to have so much curiosity about it because these are the parts of the body that are, nigh-always hidden. I’ve made sure in my sexting communications to say things like your sweet cock, you know, I, I have love for your cock. You know?
Lee: Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s so funny that you say that because there’s this: when I really have a deep connection with, with a man, it feels as if I have a relationship with his cock. Almost as if it’s a separate entity (Lila chuckles) I can have a, like, you know, a conversation and that I, could almost like, lean down next to his cock and say, I promise, I will treat you with respect. And it like may or may not have anything to do with the man whose cock this belongs to, but just, as long as his cock knows, like, I gotchu. […] And in the vein of receiving, I sooo desire to receive a lover that will treat my pussy with the same respect and regard.
Lila: Yes. That will, worship your pussy. Mm. I want that for you. Thank you.
[1:22:58] Lee on working at The Women of Venus.
Lila: How long did you… work with the women of Venus.
Lee: A year and half? Yeah, it really became my life. My friends were there. These women that I became sisters with. I don’t have any blood siblings. I don’t know what having a sibling is like.
Lila: Me neither.
Lee: And so this really became my work, my play. So my social life, my professional life, and when I got, you know, let go of in the corporate world, when I got released from corporate captivity, this was my mode of income. So this was my work. This was my social circle. This was…
Lila: Your survival?
Lee: Yeah, my survival. This was the, the mindset that I was taking on, the things I had learned here that I had felt empowered by. And, you know, I was taking on a lot of ideas about myself that also weren’t the truth. […] I’ve been told that uh, I’m entitled and spoiled.
Lila: Wow.
Lee: Yeah. There were a lot of choice words between this woman that I regarded as a teacher and I, and many others.
[1:24:23] When did Lee realize that her boss was abusive?
Lee: I didn’t admit it until, I had space from it. Until I was put on a hiatus, from the work. It was a feeling that I had had for some time and the signs for me in retrospect were that anytime I saw this person’s name pop up on my phone with a text message, there was immediate fear of like, What did I do wrong? Like what do I need to repent for? What am I gonna get yelled at for? Most times it wasn’t a communication like that. It might’ve been a logistical thing or scheduling or you know, whatever, but there were more than enough times where it was something like that and it was a barrage of texts about, something and, the culture was that this was acceptable behavior from this one person. Because, that was the leader of the ship.
Lila: You got put on a hiatus?
Lee: Yes.
Lila: What happened?
Lee: Ooghh…. I was told that… I really needed to take some time to think about what I wanted and if this was work I really wanted to do or wanted to continue, and that I was being influenced by other women that had already gotten pushed out of the collective. That there was something in me that was being influenced by the energy of these other women or that I was still attached to them, and that I needed, I needed to get clear that if, if these other women were women that I wanted to be associated with, then to go do that and if not, then to really like close the loop on, even thoughts about them.
Lila: Whoa, whoa. It’s so intensely controlling, borderline cult-like: You cannot— or or religious fervor-like. You cannot talk with the person who’s been excommunicated.
Lee: Yeah, that’s…
Lila: They’re out.
Lee: That’s what it was. I don’t know if it was borderline cult as much as it was cult.
[1:27:05] When did Lee have the revelation that it was a cult?
Lila: Did you do some research on what, what the, I was gonna to say “symptoms” are (both giggle) so I’ll just go with that.
Lee: Is there a pill for it? Maybe there’s a pill.
Lila: (laughs) Maybe. Maybe there’s a western, a, western pill for it.
Lee: (sigh) The word cult didn’t occur to me while I was in it because I was in it […] but shortly after I was put on this hiatus, I did start looking into… symptoms of emotional abuse because it wasn’t clear to me; it felt like a very heavy thing to use the word abuse. And I wasn’t about to use it lightly. And so I was like, I’ve got to be sure that if I’m going to bring this word into my vocabulary to describe this experience, well it ought to be that. […] Or I perceived that it ought to be that. And so I, started doing research and as I was reading about signs of emotional abuse, I was flabbergasted because I was like, Wow. Well that’s what I’ve been experiencing for the last year and a half.
Lila: Since the beginning?
Lee: More or less. Yeah. There, there is a little grace period in the beginning where people are—
Lila: I was wondering how you got ensnared if it was started from right from the beginning, I imagined there, there was a honeymoon period.
Lee: There was a honeymoon period, right. Um, very much of a mentorship and there, you know, don’t get me wrong, there was mentorship throughout. […] And the reason why, you know, for me anyway, I stayed in this relationship, was because it wasn’t all… you know, dense feeling all the time. It wasn’t shit all the time. There were plenty of moments that were empowering and loving and connecting. And that made it easy to justify the moments that were just the opposite of that.
Lila: That’s what a lot of people when they have abusive partners say. […] “But they, but she can be so sweet sometimes. But he can be so sweet sometimes.”
Lee: Yeah. And you know, as such, I had developed this idea that this person knew more about me than I knew about myself (Lila groans) and that I needed to be told, because this person clearly had some “woke perspective,” you know, some, guru-like perspective. And, as much as we had talked about alternate paradigms and nonhierarchical structures, there was very much a structure like that. That was very toxic and how it played out.
Lila: Dictatorship. […] But in the couchings of sister goddesses, which is what makes it very, very scary.
[1:30:01] Lila on the “Women’s Wisdom Circle” / Pyramid Scheme that she almost joined.
Lila: I almost got roped into—and the only reason probably why I wasn’t was because I didn’t have the money. I was almost, I would say hoodwinked, but I have spoken to at least one woman who’s gone through it and received the money and thought it was great. But I was invited by my former best friend to join a Women’s Wisdom Circle, which is essentially a pyramid scheme where people come in at the bottom and it requires that they continuously have people coming in at the bottom so that people can move up this chain. And when you’re at the top of the chain, they called it entrees and then the, you know, the top of the train was dessert and dessert was the, you know, the leader for a little while of this group and dessert was receiving 5,000 dollars or or no, no, it was 5,000 from everybody was the buy-in. So they would receive, I don’t know how much it was. A bunch of money. And I was so enamored with the idea of being part of a group of women who were cheerleading for each other and offering positive affirmations and doing this kind of work, that I started to invite people because they said, “Well, if you, you can get somebody else to put up your stake, you know, if you invite people, that’s more likely to happen,” or something like this, you know? And so I started inviting people and I invited, there’s a, an AcroYoga student of mine in Portland who I invited and she did research and she found, some exposes on similar kinds of, of schemes. And she… thinks mathematically, and she said, “Lila, mathematically, there’s no way that this could work for everyone.” And what they did was they coached it in feminine language of “gifting” that you didn’t “expect to receive.” But of course we would just join a support group or a mastermind if you didn’t expect to receive the money! You know what I mean? There’s no reason to join the Women’s Wisdom Circle if you weren’t hoping to receive that money to do whatever you wanted to do in the world. You know? So I have… and I remember being blinded by the thought of, of sisterhood.
[1:32:54] Lee on outsiderness and the fear that the insider has of outsiderness.
Lee: Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s a powerful thing, because before that experience, I had never, I had no concept of what sisterhood meant. And it was a, you know, a very dynamic experience in that I learned very deeply what it meant. And I learned very deeply what it does not mean. I got some powerful examples and non-examples. […] And […] in going through that process, it shattered some relationships that I had with people because when I was no longer a part of the collective, I was the outsider now. And when someone’s, the outsider, the people that are still in are not to speak to the outsider.[…]And I very much experienced that. And I also did that to other people. So this was a very full circle sort of experience for me. And so, when I was on the receiving end of non-communication, I knew why it was happening. I understood perfectly. I still had my emotional experience about it, but I completely understood because I, I just did that.
Lila: I hope that people will come to you to help them get out.
Lee: (pause) Yeah. I mean, as far as I know, I’ve, I’ve started really repairing relationships with, with women, where the relationship was ruptured and it’s a, it’s a healing process.
Lila: Yeah, it’s such a multilayered experience to recover from betrayal.
[1:35:06] Lee on the internal aftermath of the experience of being in a cult that touted sisterhood.
Lee: And it’s interesting because I had a huge breakthrough a couple months ago that after that happened, I rejected the feminine. I grew deeply mistrustful of women. And it wasn’t, in my face all the time, but really where it came up is in rejecting the feminine aspect of myself. […] So again, what I found is that, similar to what I did when I rejected the feminine energy in myself after that 2-your relationship, I threw myself into my work, and I overworked myself, to the point of exhaustion, because I wasn’t doing the resting and replenishing, because I had so deeply rejected this feminine part of me. And that was coming through in the betrayal of feeling rejected by this group of women.
[1:36:10] How has Lee’s life changed since she left the collective?
Lee: Hmm! (pause) Life feels so much simpler. It feels lighter. I’m so much more certain of myself and there isn’t a second guessing or questioning if I have the right idea about who I am. And there’s, much less dependence on someone else’s opinion and I have, so much more discernment about… what I let people tell me about myself. And when someone is sharing an opinion, I realize that: it’s an opinion. It’s a thought, and it’s founded on the experiences that this person has had. It does not make it the truth. I’m also much more discerning with where I placed my time and energy. And I am much more aware of body sensations. I can feel in my body now when something doesn’t click with someone. And it doesn’t make them a bad person, it might just be that I choose to not spend as much time with them. Or no time. I feel much happier. Um, and I’m also very grateful, for the experience overall. I think now being on the backside of it, you know, there, there may still be healing for me to do and I know that that’s not a linear process. Things might come up, but I feel like I can acknowledge both the wrath of the experience and the beauty of the experience.
[1:38:08] Lee tells Lila a story about learning to pee anywhere.
horizontal with Lee in her apartment in Brooklyn, NY. February 2019
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