This is Bevin. Whatta babe. Image by Lindley Ashline.
61. my gender is dolly parton & miss piggy: horizontal with queerfatfemme
I often say that this show is about intimate relationships of all kinds. Not just romantic and sexual relationships, which tend to be the only ones that our society considers to be under the umbrella of “intimacy,” but also family relationships and friendships and mentorships, platonic love affairs and business partnerships, and all the rest of the meaningful relationships a human can have.
Lila: How did you come out to yourself?
Bevin: Uhhhhh, a series of realizations. Just like, recognizing my desire for women— and men, I was still desiring men, and like, that’s why I identify as queer now, because the people I’m attracted to are generally non-normatively gendered, […] If I’m attracted to a femme, it’s probably because she has a queer gender expression. And if I’m attracted to someone who is more masculine-presenting, they could identify as a woman or not. Or sometimes. And so, queer just is such a umbrella term that I love, because I believe that binary gender is an oppressive system that doesn’t really exist. That’s another Matrix we can pull ourselves out of. (Lila mmhms) Gender’s a spectrum; it’s a universe, […] a lot of people live on this man planet; a lot of people live on this woman planet, but, like, let’s be honest, […] I’m out here on a unicorn planet with a lot of people with really big wigs and lots of makeup. […] And some people are space explorers, they’ll shift genders constantly, and some people are very fixed— I’m a Capricorn, so, I think my gender is pretty settled, but—
Lila: The other day I was wearing this this mustard yellow jumpsuit that I’ve been talking about—
[Note: For real. I talked about it a lot over on the gram. It’s made by the good people at Big Bud Press.]
And somebody called it gentle drag (Bevin cracks up) and that’s really what it was! It was gentle drag.
Bevin: I love that! And also a bright color! Lila: And I do that often!
Lila: And often with bright red lipstick and heels, and my hair curled, and you know, because I love it; it feels great.
Bevin: […] I love a gender-expansive lifestyle […] and I didn’t have that language when I was coming out at the tender age of 16 listening to the Indigo Girls (Lila mms) but, I was, you know, getting closer to fine, and realizing the truth about myself, but also recognizing that I— what’s the point, of coming out— right like, so I was like, there’s no point in putting myself through more oppressive experiences, because, I don’t think anyone is gonna— just, I perceived myself as unfuckable, so. And that was internalized fatphobia. So, like, then, I just stayed in the closet, ‘cause I was like, I can’t bear being fat; […] it was, an unbearable experience when I was living in that fatphobic universe, and, then, coming out felt free, but […] it wasn’t the only door I had to go through. I had to come out to myself as fat, too. And being fat and liberated, that was like, another coming out. And it was so— what a gift I gave myself to make those choices, to like, decide to think differently.
Welcome back to the podcast of intimacies recorded while reclining. Think of it as consensual eavesdropping. Or… consider it the podcast that takes you into my bed and lets your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations (as it was sumptuously described by listener “ghostheart.”)
I often say that this show is about intimate relationships of all kinds. Not just romantic and sexual relationships (which tend to be the only ones that our society considers to be under the umbrella of “intimacy”) but also family relationships and friendships and mentorships, platonic love affairs and business partnerships, and all the rest of the meaningful relationships a human can have. We also deepdive into the one relationship that is intrinsic to all of these, and yet not always named as such: our relationship to ourselves.
The lion’s share of this episode is about self-intimacy. How we think to ourselves, how we talk to ourselves, how we treat ourselves, care for ourselves, how we mother ourselves, and how we pick ourselves up…
Va va Bevin! Photo by Lindley Ashline.
In this episode, recorded on my trip to Los Angeles in early December, I lie down with Bevin, aka queerfatfemme, fearless torchbearer of body-positivity and positivity in general, warrior for self-love, creator of Fat Kid Dance Party aerobics, former lawyer, empress of tea, and purveyor of radically colorful fabulosity. She’s also a reiki practitioner and a Life Purpose Coach. Go swimming in all things kind and sparkly and jubilant on queerfatfemme.com
She describes her gender as Dolly Parton and Miss Piggy. I pretty much wanted to talk to her forever. I settled for 3 hours. This is the first half of that conversation. It’s a helluvan episode.
In it, we talk about a gender-expansive lifestyle, seasonal affective disorder, self-compassion, self-care for Future Us, fatphobia, multiple coming-outs, soulmates, and systems of oppression that, in Bevin’s incisive words, “intersect on the body and bloom.”
The next episode, 62, contains the second part of our conversation (in which I tell the entire 17-year story of the romance that led to my abortion in October), is available on Patreon to patrons of $5 and up per month.
Patreon is the love child of crowd-funding and a subscription service. When you sign up, you’ll get a special RSS feed (that’s the stream of episodes that are available to my patrons, which includes love poems of the month, for my $10 and up patrons). You add that to your podcast player, and it gives you exclusive access to all the episodes, every part two, going back to the beginning. I’ve made a little video tutorial for it, in case the RSS is confusing. It’s available on my Patreon page. (See what I did there?)
Welcome to my darling new patrons this month: Pan, Nick, Louis, Ava, David, Emilee, Donald, Jacob, Charles, Olivia, Sheila, Trep, Renata, Greg, and Taekia, Nicole, Ariana, and an extra happy dance for Christian, who upped his patronage in December!
I’m deeply committed to Intimacy Maven as a career choice, and continuing to create work that diminishes loneliness, dispels shame, and alchemizes human connection, in multiple mediums. You can help me happen it.
Patronage begins at $2 a month, and I absolutely cherish every single patron. All patrons are invited to my secret Facebook group, where I share fascinating sex-positive articles, and behind-the-scenes things, and my Feels and goals and musings. I know some friends of mine have been hesitant to be a patron if they could only do $2 a month, but let me assure you: If everybody who was positively impacted by my writing or this podcast became a $2 a month patron, it would change my life. That’s the beauty of this new era of creation.
For more horizontality in your life, you can receive my words in your inbox once a week(ish). I call them missives, and they are full of my personal writing, bits of the show notes for each episode with links to the whole shebang, invitations to my live events, and horizontal photos, often in unexpected places. The last missive was titled “how does it feel to want?” and was all about longing.
Sign up for all that goodness here on the website and add lila@horizontalwithlila.com to your address book, because email servers are frustrating and strange and sometimes treat my email like Spam, which it is Not. If you used to get my emails and don’t anymore, that might be why! Rescue them, please!
Now, dear one, come lie down with us and a Persian squashy-faced cat named Biscuit Reynolds, in Los Angeles, California.
horizontal with Bevin (& Biscuit) in Los Angeles, California. December 2018
Links to Things:
The website for all things Bevin: queerfatfemme.com
Fat Kid Dance Party, Bevin’s dance aerobics project!
The soundtrack for the movie Dumplin’, a new Jennifer Aniston film— the story of a fat teenaged Dolly Parton fan who becomes a pageant queen in Texas
Mama Gena, the sensuality thought leader, who has taught several generations of women how to brag, in books like Pussy
She’s Come Undone, by Wally Lamb, a book that inspired 19 year-old Bevin to make the decision to stop hating herself, so that she would not be like the main character
The land of colorful jumpsuits (Lila has two. Teehe.)
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to this website or my Patreon!):
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[7:26] Lila on her Seasonal Affective Disorder and rewiring her nervous system. She wonders if it would make a difference if she lived in someplace with consistent sunshine.
[10:44] Bevin wonders if she and Lila are related, since she too has depression on both sides of the family and is super pale and light-sensitive.
[13:16] Lila on never going to bed when she’s tired. Which is perhaps the cause of her fatigue, eh?
[13:46] What happened when Bevin started working for herself and privileging sleep?
[14:58] Lila’s sleep-deprivation-induced road rage upon her arrival to L.A., and the correlation between sleep and kindness.
[17:34]
Bevin: The person who was the most damaged in that moment was you. […] ‘Cause, that guy couldn’t hear you. […] And also, sometimes like, we just have to feel our feelings, and let it pop, and recognize, for self-care later. Like, ‘cause self-care’s just a constant calibration, like: How am I doing? (Lila enthusiastically mmhms) What does my body need? What is my body going to need? And sometimes, self-care ultimately is doing the thing you don’t want to do right now, that will help you in the future.
Lila: Yes! I often think about: I’m gonna go grocery-shopping for Future Me—
Bevin: Yes.
Lila: And then, later on, when I go into the fridge and I have things to eat, I go, “PAST ME!” (both crack up) “ I LOVE YOU SO MUCH!”
Bevin: Right?! Agree. Wholeheartedly. Sometimes like, Bevin from the past is really good to Bevin in the future.
Lila: And sometimes.
Bevin: Sometimes she fails—
Bevin: — a little. Lila: Not so much, yeah.
[19:57] What was Bevin’s household like, growing up?
Bevin: I grew up in the Bay Area, in California. Like, we moved a lot— I moved 13 times by the time I was 13.
Lila: Whoa!
Bevin: It’s a lot of moving.
Lila: Also, a military thing?
Bevin: No, it was single mom, poverty, divorce, stuff, and so it was a lot of um, just survival moves like, next best thing. My mom worked so hard to give me the best possible life that she could, um, and a lot of that involves moving, sometimes. She eventually made it into the best school district that she could find, in the Bay Area, and that was Castro Valley and so, I like to describe it as a suburb that could’ve been anywhere. But even within town we moved a bunch of times, you know, we were in like an apartment complex in the cheapest part of town — it’s a very rich suburb — and then like, moved into a rental house in a different, at a different elementary school, so I changed schools a lot, which is, you know, wildly disruptive. And then, eventually, by the time I was 13 then, she bought her first house which, she ultimately owned for — gosh — 20-something years until she retired.
Little school photo Bevin.
[21:08] What kind of new-kid-at-school was Bevin?
Bevin: I was the fat one who read on the playground — so I was just, always reading a book. It was really hard to be fat, for me, as a kid. Less kids were fat, when I was a kid. So I was like, kind of, a rarity—
Lila: Less kids in general?
Bevin: Yeah, I think now, like, there are more fat kids, than there were then. […] I think there are more now, partially because of, like, sedentary lifestyles and, poverty keeping kids from being able to like, move around and do those like, things that kind of regulate our bodies more and processed foods. Like, I think all of those kind of mix up and we get more kids who are fatter, these days than we used to. But, it’s also like, nobody’s fault, like, it’s all systems of oppression that kind of intersect on the body, and like, bloom. And like, I was a kid that experienced some abuse and a lot of trauma, and I was a very sensitive kid and so— and I think my body is just like, really predispositioned to be fat. I think like, sometimes— people really love to pathologize fat as like, lifestyle, and, fat is so many things, fat can be the result of a side effect of a disease. Fat could be the result of hormone changes. Fat can be… just benign genetic diversity— some of us just, are fat, like fat born fat. Sometimes fat is like, lifestyle, and sometimes fat is like, ‘cause you broke a leg and you can’t move around and, and things just change in your body, and—
Lila: In my aunts I think that it is a result of sexual assault.
Bevin: Totally. Trauma. So trauma like also, changes the way our bodies are wired, um, it changes the way we can move, and sometimes, people, who have experienced trauma, like, y’know, use coping mechanisms, and eating is one of them. So is shopping, so is working, so is alcohol and other drugs. So there’s like lots of way that our body develops adipose tissue, and I like to really work to help people understand that it’s not a value judgment, and to value thin bodies over fat bodies is just perpetuating unnecessary oppression, and like, we can choose— it’s like being in the Matrix or not. It’s like, we can choose, to experience value — like this arbitrary value — on different bodies based on like, size, race, age, ability— all of these things just intersect in the body and like, create this like, artificial matrix of value, that only benefits corporations who, and like, supermodels, right? But even thin people are affected by fatphobia, because, thin people are still affected by the fear of becoming fat—
Lila: Right.
Bevin: — the fear of becoming disabled. The fear of losing this like, value that they put, on these bodies, and like, we’re literally all aging. So (Lila mmhms) I really like to just like teach people that you can exist outside of this idea. All bodies are good bodies and it really serves everybody — especially you — because like, the more you stress out, the more you age. Like, I believe I’m aging in reverse, like I, just keep looking younger. (laughs)
Lila: I also feel like I’m getting younger every year and my housemate Leandra feels that way, too.
Bevin: Yeah, and like, and it’s, literally just a state of mind, it’s like how you, experience the world around you; you can choose to experience it in a more difficult way or you can choose to like, get into the flow, and be in more joy, and like, get resilient to other people’s judgment, and, that resilience comes from like— like when you were talking about being kind: the kinder you are to other people, the kinder you can be to yourself. It’s a feedback loop. The more compassionate you can be to other people, the more compassionate you can be to yourself. Self-compassion is like, possibly one of the most libertory things that we can do.
Lila: Mm, mothering ourselves— sometimes I (Bevin mmhms) I frame the Restorative Yoga practice that I teach each week as, a practice in mothering ourselves, which is, to me, the most adult thing that we could do.
[25:16] Bevin points out regularly on social media, that fat is simply a descriptor, like tall, or short.
Bevin, by Lindley Ashline.
[26:30]
Bevin: It’s like how can we be so arbitrary about other descriptions of bodies, but fat is somehow pejorative? Like that’s a creation. That’s not something that is inherent, and I like to reclaim it as just the neutral descriptor of how I look, what my body is like, how I interact with gravity, like, it’s not— it doesn’t have anything to do with my value, and in fact, I think in many ways, being fat has been an asset in my life. If I hadn’t experienced bullying for my weight when I was a kid, I wouldn’t be out here, liberating other people who have experienced that too—
Lila: You wouldn’t have the kind of compassion that you have.
Bevin: Mm-mm. I wouldn’t be the movement instructor I am, like, having a fat body means that I know the experience of what it’s like to have a body that moves through gravity differently. So I can design movement that is kinder for all bodies, and is accessible for all bodies, and creates, you know, a container for people to experience their bodies, that is different than what a lot of other movement instructors do— who grew up as an athlete or, as a dancer or, just, in a thin body and just not being aware of how it might be different or difficult to do floor-based work if you’re in a fat body.
[26:43] Bevin on modifying exercise movement to suit more bodies.
[27:29] Lila wishes that her father would learn ways to exercise his body at 77. Bevin thinks it is truly never too late.
[27:57]
Bevin: You can’t ever count on people to change, but you can be open to people changing. And I truly believe — if someone out there is 77 years old, and has severe sciatica, and is afraid of movement, I want to encourage you to just try. Try something. Do something for five minutes. It will, shift how you feel in your body, to even do 5 minutes of movement. […] You’ve gotta be in that mindset of self-care, like, Future You, like I always feel better when I do dance aerobics. I never thought of myself as possibly teaching it, but I have turned to it so many times in my life when I’ve had really difficult experiences, like, breakups, I’ll like, dive into dance aerobics, and do it every day, ‘cause it like, helps me get out of my head, helps me transmute my rage. […] If I can’t feel happy in my heart because I’m going through grief around something, I can at least feel happy in my body. And at least feel that uplift from movement, and that is like, hard to do— it’s hard to motivate yourself to start, when you’re like “Ugh, the world sucks, everything sucks. I don’t wanna move.” But […] that’s […] where I can get into the mindset— okay, future Bevin deserves to feel this way (Lila mm’s) so I’m just gonna do the thing. I like to say: If you’re thinking about movement or self-care, just do it, and then think about it later. ‘Cause like, I can often like, waste an hour and a half just like not, getting into, whatever it was that I was intending to, to work out. […] And sometimes it’s just like, nice to do that kind thing for yourself, when the world is feeling so unkind. Like, we can choose to be kind to ourselves and, and do the self-care, because, it can feel like the world is a dumpster fire, and nothing is good. So then, here’s this good thing we can do for ourselves.
[30:20] Bevin on her school life.
Little Bevin.
Bevin: Oh yeah, I was, bullied a lot. I mean, it didn’t help that we moved so much, so I was always the new kid, but also like, kids just really love to see difference and they love to, like, create power dynamics, and bullying is just— it’s, I love the anti-bullying sentiments that are present in our media today, um I feel like, my mom is counseling my cousin right now, who’s dealing with her child being bullied in school and, it’s just such a different climate, um, anti-bullying is certainly more present than it was— my mom tried a little bit. She tried her best; I didn’t tell her about all the bullying I experienced because uh, she didn’t really — it was not intentional — but she didn’t cultivate that safe of a space for me to talk about it, at home, so she didn’t know m— most of what was going on, but she certainly stepped in about educators bullying me, and there were a couple of teachers I had — in fifth grade and when I was in high school specifically — who did not appreciate me and targeted me because of my weight. And that’s just like oppression! Like people really believing that, I’m not gonna thrive because I’m fat, or that, I’m not smart because I’m fat, and like, if anything, being an oppressed person, means, that you work harder! To prove yourself. You have to work harder.
Lila: You have to become more agile.
Bevin: Uhhuh, and you have to like, present better, and, I mean, there’s this whole, like, uplift that you have to do, ‘cause you don’t wanna seem sloppy, because there’s already all of those like, ideas that fat people, aren’t valuable, or aren’t — can’t be cute, can’t be whatever, so like, I feel I think more pressure to wear makeup and dress well, partially because I want to put my best foot forward, because I know that, like that first impression, people are judging me based on my weight. And I don’t do much these days to cater to other people’s judgement. […] I’ve shifted my experience of me and style and aesthetic and makeup to be about me and how I wanna feel, because I enjoy wearing makeup, I enjoy, what I look like when I do — my face and my look and my style. So, I think there’s like, some stuff from growing up and experiencing oppression around being fat and then, I think, there’s like a reclamation that I’ve had, as I’ve like, moved myself away from judgement of others.
[32:55] How does Lila feel when she doesn’t wear makeup?
[33:20]
Lila: I choose to dress up and to, to play, and to costume myself, and to make myself up, in a way that is… reverent to the fact that I have a body… and, that, celebrates the, the shape that I was given and celebrates the… the features that I have. And I think of it as a, an honoring, of my body and my, my form, because I’m not going to get another one, in this life. So…
Bevin as seen by McKay Nield. Dolly + Miss Piggy, no?!
Bevin: It’s true! You’re not gonna get another today, either. So you might as well just experience it, in the way that’s gonna help you feel best. And like, I think that it’s totally okay for people to not wear makeup, if that doesn’t make them feel, great, but like, I agree; I feel more myself when I’m — it’s like my gender presentation, essentially, like […] I wanna say like, “Oh, my gender is femme,” but actually, my gender is more like Dolly Parton and Miss Piggy. (Lila laughs) Like it’s just like this extra extra extra femininity that like—
Lila: Ohhh, I love it!
Bevin: Takes a little bitta work, but really like, y’know, makes me feel. It’s like a topical antidepressant—
Lila: Yyyes.
Bevin: — like you say about colorful clothing. […] It’s— it really does. Like when I’m not feeling good, if I bother to do a full face, it does transform how I feel. […] It’s like, if you look at Dolly Parton, she is “More is More.” Like, she is like, rhinestones and sequins and then bigger rhinestones, and then—
Lila: Larger hair.
Bevin: Yes, larger hair and bugle beads and like, (Lila laughs lightly) sparkly shoes… I just, I recently saw a picture of her— she’s like promoting the, the soundtrack for Dumplin’, which is the new Jennifer Aniston movie, that’s based on a fat teenager, who’s a Dolly Parton fan, uh, who becomes a pageant queen in Texas. Um, it’s a whole thing, and Dolly is promoting it. And there’s a promo picture of Dolly, with bangs and long straight hair, and I’m like, “I’ve never seen you without hair that was teased, and, I don’t know how to feel.” (Lila laughs) But I’m into it; she looks amazing. So, way to surpise us Dolly.
[36:48] On the costuming of daily life.
Lila: But everybody’s wearing a costume. No matter what they’re wearing. […] They’re wearing a businessperson costume, they’re wearing a… “I don’t give a shit” costume, they’re wearing a, tennis costume, they’re wearing a— you know, everyone’s wearing a costume. […] The only thing that’s not a costume is nudity. […]
Bevin: Like Ru Paul says: “We’re all born naked; the rest is just drag.”
Lila: The rest is just draaag! Thanks, Ru Paul. Yeah.
Bevin: Ru Paul is a spiritual thought leader.
[37:15] Bevin on the brilliance of Ru Paul and what he gives us.
[38:23] Bevin on prosperity consciousness.
Bevin: I love watching people’s careers accelerate, because, it helps me feel, […] especially like, as a minority, like, it helps me feel like, “Oh, because we can all rise up.”
Lila: Possibility.
Bevin: Yeah. It’s just, it’s interesting, and helpful and supportive and positive to like, watch and appreciate other people rising up — especially my friends, like, this is like, prosperity consciousness, but I believe that like, we serve from an unlimited well, and that, when other people succeed, it’s like I’m succeeding. Like, vicariously. ‘Cause we all like succeed together and continue to rise up […] as we overlap as artists.
Lila: Does the inverse hold true though?
Bevin: (sighs) Um. I think that you are the company you keep. So if you’re with people who are in lack and limitation thinking, and who are saying “Ohh, I hate myself,” or “Oh, I’m never gonna succeed,” and who are hellbent on you not succeeding, “Oh, you’re never gonna succeed,” “You’re never gonna do this.” You have to surround yourself with people who believe in you. […] And who believe in themselves. And I think like— if you write a list of all the people you spend time with, and figure out the top 5 people you spend time with, figure out if they’re helping you stay positive, or if they’re, helping you go negative, it’ll really change the way you live your life, if you, focus on those 5 people that are the most positive in your life.
Lila: It took me a long, long time, to believe in myself. If the people that, loved me, had given up on me because I didn’t believe in myself — wow, I don’t know that I would be, where I am.
Bevin: Well I’m not saying give up on people; I’m just saying like, focus your time and your energy on believing in yourself, and staying with the people who help you stay uplifted— I mean, I didn’t believe in myself either and I had to have friends who like, taught me to love myself, basically, but like, you know, staying positive and being with people who like, spark that in you, makes a difference. And you can tell the difference between someone who like, is saying self-deprecating things, but then ultimately believes in themselves, versus someone who is just, really in that negative space. I think there’s like a quality you can, you can get in that.
Lila: Yeah, I have a housemate, and she and I used to really do a lot of complaining together, and at one point I, I pointed to it, and I said, “I don’t, I don’t want us to do this. I don’t think this is, this is good for us,” and so, we’ve actively spent time asking each other “What’s good today?”
Bevin: I love that!
Lila: Yeah.
Bevin: Is it working?
Lila: Mm-hmm.
Bevin: That’s great.
Lila: Yeah, it makes a difference. It doesn’t mean that we can’t tell each other something that we’re struggling with — […] but that we do spend time and actively tell each other— she’s a, well-versed in Mama Gena techniques and tactics, and, one of them is bragging. So, we practice bragging (Bevin laughs) to each other.
Bevin: That’s great.
Lila: It is. It’s really helpful, actually.
Bevin: There’s an exercise I’ve been doing— it’s called Kylego, and it is, named for the two people who came up with it, Kyle and Diego: Kylego. And it’s basically just talking about something that hasn’t yet happened, as though it happened, in the best possible way it could have happened. ‘Cause our brains and our subconscious are wired to get us to places in the shortest possible period of time. It is, so awkward, to like, talk about your hopes and dreams as though they already happened, but, it is so powerful, and if you do it, like, I’ve been doing it now when I do my makeup— […]
Lila: So you’re talking to yourself.
Bevin: I’m talking to myself, looking myself in the eyeballs, ‘cause eyeballs are so important, and just like talking about my life as though my dreams have come to pass and like, right now, in my life, I’m dealing with a lot of uncertainty […] and struggles, and it’s not like I don’t vent to my friends and talk to them about what’s happening, but, the more I can spend in a solutions-place, the more I can spend like— ‘cause I noticed this last week, in my depression — just, she unfolds, she shows me more, as I continue to work with her — she like, I realized last week, every time I was dwelling in the uncertainties going on in my life, like— my partner and I are having a real rough patch, and like, my finances are very, like—
Lila: Tenuous.
Bevin: Tenuous! Tenuous is a great term for that! As I continue to pursue my dream, which is not yet paying for my life. […] It’s so hard, and everytime I was having thoughts about the uncertainty, I noticed my depression would flare. It was like, almost a one-for-one correlation and I was like, Oh! and then I started thinking back to like, other times in my life that have been really difficult with depression and I’m like, Oh! Every time I thought about like, trying to get a job when I was leaving law school — ‘cause like, finding a job was really hard for me at that point — I was getting suicidal, like it was tha — it was like that. And I was like, Wow, look at that: when I dwell in uncertainty, it flares my depression, which makes it harder for me to move forward in life, so, if I can do this other stuff, to kind of balance it out, and really focus on: what’s the best possible outcome, because, it’s, free to dream. And it’s free to change your thoughts. So it’s like, this is […] one of the best things you can do to love yourself is to just like, figure out how to think, in a more prosperous way. In a way that isn’t about, like dwelling in how much you don’t like yourself or you don’t like your feet, or whatever. Like instead, I like to tell people: Focus on the part of your body that you already feel good about: Dress for that. For me, it was my cleavage. When I was like 22, I just started dressing for my cleavage. I didn’t love my body yet; I didn’t even know what body liberation was. And, I just started dressing in this way that accentuated my cleavage. And it just changed my life; it changed the way I felt about my body. It enabled me to start learning to love other parts of my body. Until now, I’m pretty cool with pretty much everything in my body. And like, it’s been 20 years of work almost, and like it is… a night and day experience of what it’s like to live in this life, and to experience this life. I’m so grateful I did that work. And it doesn’t mean you can’t complain; it doesn’t mean that you can’t have a bad day. And it doesn’t mean you can’t vent, but it’s just like, how are you spending the majority of your time? How are you spending the majority of your thoughts? What are you doing when those negative thoughts come up? What are you doing in the car? In the car is where I was like, mostly having like, my negative thought spirals, and I just learned how to interrupt that stuff. ‘Cause like, I spend the most time with myself! So I might as well make it an inspired experience.
Bevin, horizontal in her guest room. Los Angeles, CA. December 2018
Lila: And how did you interrupt it?
Bevin: It started when I was 19; I made a decision to stop hating myself. And it was because I read a book called She’s Come Undone, by Wally Lamb, and the main character is this very depressed, fat woman, who, is just like, miserable, and I related so much to her! that it made me uncomfortable. I was like, I don’t, like!
Lila: I don’t wanna be like that.
Bevin: I don’t wanna be like that! I’m like that, and I don’t want it! And so I just decided that I was gonna stop hating myself and I didn’t know how, but ironically, dance aerobics was one of the first things I did. […] It was like an MTV workout VHS I had, and it made me happier, to do it, so I was like, Okay, I’m gonna do, some dance aerobics, and it wasn’t about changing my body, it was just about like, vibing up and feeling happier. Eventually, […] little things happen, like I met my first girlfriend, who enabled me to come out, which really helped me be happier and more free, to like, be out of the closet. And then, when I was 22, I, like, I like to say I fell in with the right group of friends, and like they, believed that I was beautiful just as I was; that my body was not a hindrance to be being a babe— I was just a babe. (Lila mm’s warmly) And I met other queer fat femmes, and like, finally had language for who I was in the world, and like saw these people who were just thriving, and loving themselves no matter what, which was like— I had never met a self-loving fat person before and that blew everything away for me. And then, as I continued to work on body acceptance and body liberation, and liberating myself from these ideas that my body needed to be a certain way for me to thrive, I just like, got happier, and more, myself. And that didn’t mean / equate self-love, ‘cause I didn’t realize that I was still having all this internal negative self-talk and really putting a lot of pressure on myself to achieve and to be a perfectionist, and doing all these things without regard for how much toll they were taking on me, because I needed to just— like it was this like, coded idea that my value was based on external things, and so I was just like— I was the kind of person that would recite my To Do list in my head, and berate myself for never finishing it, because I didn’t have any concept for capacity, and like, how much my capacity like, mattered and that, determining your capacity and working with your capacity is part of self-care. And like, those long To Do lists that are like a hundred items long, are actually really damaging to yourself, and they result in getting less done. So if you can really isolate those top three priorities, and put those on your To Do list, you’ll get things done faster — it’s all brain science stuff — you get things done faster, and also, you’re easier on yourself. And then, you know, you’ll get to everything— you can get— you can do it all, you just can’t do it all at once.
Lila: At once. At one time.
[48:12] On learning how to speak kindly to oneself.
Bevin: […] I had a life coach who […] in the first session, tried to get me to talk to myself as though I was a little kid, and I couldn’t do it. And so then I was like, Aw man, I really need this. And so, (Lila mms empathetically) I’ve worked really hard on it, and now I can be really gentle with myself — and gentle with other people! It’s like— 10 years ago, people would not have described me as kind, as one of the first things. And now, that’s the most common adjective I hear about me, which is dope. Like I’m glad that I’ve made that shift, because I’m kinder to myself, and I’m kinder to other people.
Lila: I developed a mothering voice — and when I was traveling across the country last year, recording a lot of episodes — horizontal does america — […] I noticed how much I was internally defending my choices. To noone! Noone was in the car with me! (Bevin laughs) Noone was around! And I was just constantly justifying and defending. And, I realized that a lot of it was defending to, you know, the imaginary mother – judgement voice.
Bevin: Ogh yes.
Lila: And so, I just started saying to myself — and I wasn’t framing it as talking to my little self, but that is, I think, what I was doing. I just started saying, That’s okay, baby. That’s alright. (Bevin mms) So, you, yeah, you missed the turn, or, y— you know, yes, I’m sure that your friend would have camped overnight in the car at this hot springs and then hiked down in the morning, but you’re not gonna do that. You’re gonna go on to Vegas and sleep in a bed. And that’s okay! You know. That’s alright babe.
Bevin: What a kind thing you did for yourself!
Lila: (chuckles) So, tapping into that voice is, is key. And I think will be key throughout my life. I remember, somebody saying, because I was like, “Why do I have to keep learning the same lessons over and o— didn’t I learn it already?! And they said, “Y’know. I don’t think that these, these voices, that, you know, have been ingrained… They don’t necessarily ever go completely away. But the volume turns down. And your ability to ignore it and turn up the volume on another voice, becomes stronger.”
Bevin: Absolutely.
Lila: And that was really powerful, because, to embrace, a wholeness, right, to understand that, I could consider myself as a person who loves herself, and still have those voices. They still exist. And not be like, Oh, well, clearly I fucked it up. And I don’t actually really love myself. You know?! But just to be able to— to talk back to them? (Bevin mmhms) Sometimes? And to have even, that sweet voice, who says, It’s alright, baby.
Bevin: And sometimes, all those voices need are just like a kind acknowledgement. They just need to be seen.
Lila: (overlapping) Oh, like, Thank you for your input, I, I hear that you’re upset.
Bevin: You’re trying to keep me safe. You’re trying to like, keep me happy. And I hear that. And like, even um, if you feel fear coming up, if you can just say, I love that. Or I love that I’m afraid of this, like, sometimes that love just neutralizes it. It neutralizes the energy.
Lila: Mm, like Thank you for trying to take care of me. (Bevin mmhm’s) I so appreciate that. […] It reminds me of Inside Out. I was so impressed, to see a movie that didn’t demonize sadness, that showed adults and children — and the children inside adults — that sadness can be valuable.
Bevin: […] Sadness is valuable. […] I like to think positively — positive thinking and being positive is part of my survival repertoire, right, but (Lila mmhm’s) it’s also like, it’s so important that we not spiritually bypass —
Lila: Oh my gosh, yesss.
Bevin: — our difficult emotions. […] It’s also external value systems that say being sad is bad. And being happy is good. Like, really it’s just about like, being in your homeostasis, recognizing the flow in your life, like today when you were talking about the gloomy experience and if it was PMS, like, you’re doing that scan— you’re scanning to— you’re doing your self-care scan, you’re like seeing, What’s present in me? How can I transfer this? ‘Cause like, a sadness that’s from like, hormonal shifts is a different sadness than a sadness that’s from grief.
Lila: And requires a different kind of care.
Bevin: Yeah, a different sort of attention and a different passage — ‘cause every emotion, and that’s the thing, depression, is stuck energy, and that’s why, I think— I mean it’s really hard for me to exist in depression because, I just grind to a halt. And so like, I wanna always be in flow, I want my energy to be moving. I also know that like, happiness, is not something that can stay—
Lila: You achieve. Just like balance— I always tell my yoga students, that balance is constant adjustments to the reality of the given moment.
Bevin: Amen, and that is so true for like every, thing you do in your life, not just with your body, but with your, heart and your mind and your experience of the world — it’s just balance. Like, things will always come up. Like that’s — change is life. Change is God. Change is, like, what we’re always gonna experience and we’re always, getting older, as I like to say — and so everything is changing. And so like, being able to stay in that balanced space is like, I think like, a life’s work. […] We’re not raised how to be in balance; we’re raised how to, be in capitalism. (Lila laughs) So it’s up to us to like, re-parent ourselves and figure this stuff out as adults, and like, I, and I, never think it’s too late. I think, again, to the 77 year-old listening to this, like, it’s not too late. Start today. You can, you can have a more pleasant experience of life if you just stay being in balance and not judge yourself, for what comes up.
[54:27] When did sexuality come into Bevin’s consciousness?
Bevin: Um (sigh) so, really late for, I think, a human in the world. I, didn’t even know that you could be gay, until I was like 14 years old. It just didn’t occur to me that women could love other women, or men could love other men.
Lila: How did you find out?
Bevin: Girl Scout camp. I met a gay person. And I was like, Wait, what? And then I was like, Wow. And then—
Lila: And they were also a Girl Scout? They were young?
Bevin: No, they were old; they were a counselor […] so like, 20. I mean, it was old then, but it’s (guffaw) not so old now. […] And I was like, Wow, you can be gay; I didn’t even know! And the ironic thing is—
Lila: How did you know they were gay?
Bevin: Uhhh, someone told me. So like another camper who knew that she was gay, said that she was gay, and I was like (whispers) “What is gay?”
Lila: What is gay?!
Bevin: Yeah, what is gay? […] I came of age before Melissa Ethridge came out; I came of age before Ellen came out. So all of this is like— we didn’t talk about it; you didn’t hear about gay stuff in mainstream culture. And the ironic thing is, my mom is presently gay, and she came out when she and my Dad divorced in 1980. So I was like, 18 months old. And, um, she started dating women, but had a really bad experience with a woman when I was like, 5 years old, and stopped dating women entirely and so I just didn’t —
Lila: Whooooaa.
Bevin: Even though I had known gay people when I was little, I didn’t know that that was a thing you could be, um, (underlapping) until I was 14.
Lila: (overlapping) And she didn’t tell you.
Bevin: She didn’t tell me. So— and I think that was another way she was parenting to keep me safe, and always doing the best she could. But um, I learned it on the streets. (Lila guffaws) Instead of at home.
[56:10] Did Bevin get a sex talk?
Bevin: Not really. I got sex books. I was given a couple of sex books.
Lila: And they were heteronormative.
Bevin: Yes. Totally heteronormative. […] But also, combine that with me being fat, and I felt like I didn’t have any agency over my sexuality because, nobody would want to sleep with me anyway. So, it was like, that was the narrative on my mind. I was also like— I didn’t start questioning my sexuality ‘til I was 15. And then, when I was 16, I came out to myself and like, a couple close friends, but that was it. I stayed in the closet, firmly in the closet, ‘til I was 19.
[56:46]
Lila: How did you come out to yourself?
Bevin teaching Fat Kid Dance Party aerobics! Image by Lindley Ashline.
Bevin: Uhhhhh, a series of realizations. Just like, recognizing my desire for women— and men, I was still desiring men, and like, that’s why I identify as queer now, because the people I’m attracted to are generally non-normatively gendered, […] If I’m attracted to a femme, it’s probably because she has a queer gender expression. And if I’m attracted to someone who is more masculine-presenting, they could identify as a woman or not. Or sometimes. And so, queer just is such a umbrella term that I love, because I believe that binary gender is an oppressive system that doesn’t really exist. That’s another Matrix we can pull ourselves out of. (Lila mmhms) Gender’s a spectrum; it’s a universe, […] a lot of people live on this man planet; a lot of people live on this woman planet, but, like, let’s be honest, […] I’m out here on a unicorn planet with a lot of people with really big wigs and lots of makeup. […] And some people are space explorers, they’ll shift genders constantly, and some people are very fixed— I’m a Capricorn, so, I think my gender is pretty settled, but—
Lila: The other day I was wearing this this mustard yellow jumpsuit that I’ve been talking about—
[Note: For real. I talked about it a lot over on the gram. It’s made by the good people at Big Bud Press.]
And somebody called it gentle drag (Bevin cracks up) and that’s really what it was! It was gentle drag.
Bevin: I love that! And also a bright color! Lila: And I do that often!
Lila: And often with bright red lipstick and heels, and my hair curled, and you know, because I love it; it feels great.
horizontal in alleged mustard yellow jumpsuit at Cafe Gratitude. Los Angeles, CA. December 2018
Bevin: […] I love a gender-expansive lifestyle […] and I didn’t have that language when I was coming out at the tender age of 16 listening to the Indigo Girls (Lila mms) but, I was, you know, getting closer to fine, and realizing the truth about myself, but also recognizing that I— what’s the point, of coming out— right like, so I was like, there’s no point in putting myself through more oppressive experiences, because, I don’t think anyone is gonna— just, I perceived myself as unfuckable, so. And that was internalized fatphobia. So, like, then, I just stayed in the closet, ‘cause I was like, I can’t bear being fat; […] it was, an unbearable experience when I was living in that fatphobic universe, and, then, coming out felt free, but […] it wasn’t the only door I had to go through. I had to come out to myself as fat, too. And being fat and liberated, that was like, another coming out. And it was so— what a gift I gave myself to make those choices, to like, decide to think differently.
[59:30] How did Bevin’s friends react when she first came out?
Bevin: The couple friends I had that I talked to about it, were totally supportive. A couple of them were like, “Oh, me too.” […] I just remember being so scared, every time I talked to someone about my sexuality. Every single coming out experience was great. And then, when I came out for real, I came out to the world, it was like, not a big deal. […] And it was so easy to come out when I had a girlfriend, ‘cause all I had to say was, “Oh, I have a girlfriend now.” […] In many ways that was a great shortcut. And then, as a femme-presenting person, nobody ever thinks that I’m gay, from looking at me—
Lila: Right.
Bevin: And so, coming out is very easy when you can say, “Oh my ex-girlfriend, blahblahblah,” right, like, such an easy thing to say, to never have to, like, come out again in that same way. (Lila mm’s) Where it’s just like, you had to— I just had to own my sexuality, before I dated someone. And I don’t like to hinge my worthiness or my experience on external validation— but it was an easy shortcut for me at the time.
[1:00:49] Bevin begins the story of meeting her first girlfriend. (But Lila hijacks it for a story about a crummy ex. Don’t worry. We get back to the girlfriend.)
Bevin: I was an RA. At college. I was a junior at UC Davis (go Ags) and she was my resident, um, so it was like— my boss was very—
Lila: Oooh!
Bevin: — kind.
Lila: Spicy! It is spicy. My boss was kind though because she had told us in our RA training, we were free to date the residents only if it was a serious relationship. So—
Lila: (very animated) That is so reasonable!
Bevin: It is so reasonable!
Lila: That’s the tack that I’ve taken as a yoga teacher, right, because some people are really hard line—
Bevin: Yeah!
Lila: And they say, you know, you never date your students, and it’s like, Well, when does somebody become your student?
Bevin: Exactly.
Lila: If someone has been to your class, a few times at a gym, are they really your student? […] But the rule that I made for myself, the one that ethically felt right to me, was: I will only date a student if it’s going to be love.
Bevin: Right?
Lila: And I dated one student.
Bevin: And then also, (underlapping) your student’s really flexible!
Lila: (overlapping) And he was a— not a student. (Bevin laughs) He came to my class once. At a gym. Once.
Bevin: Is that how you met him?
Lila: Yes.
Bevin: Okay.
Lila: And then we stayed talking afterwards, and, started joking about, a beverage, and then, he asked me for a drink and— yeah. That’s how that started.
Bevin: Wow.
Lila: It didn’t turn out very well. (Bevin laughs) He was a lawyer.
Bevin: Ugh.
Lila: He was a workaholic.
Bevin: Uhhuh.
Lila: He wanted to be a politician.
Bevin: Uff.
Lila: He was kinky.
Bevin: (interestedly) Mm?
Lila: He was dominant. And he was staunchly polyamorous, and I do not know where I fall on the poly/mono spectrum. Still. And so we had, we had some, some issues and I was, I was just— his work was just always. He told me it was always gonna be #1 priority, no matter what. And I was like, No matter WHAT?! Like, what, what if I’m in the hospital, what if my mother die— you know, like, your work is always gonna be number one? So, that didn’t—
Bevin: Did he have a primary?
Lila: I was his primary briefly.
Bevin: OHhh.
Lila: When I was with him.
Bevin: Wow.
Lila: Yeah. Didn’t turn out so well. […] I have a really terrible story about him, too.
Bevin: Mm, we can go off the record, if you want.
Lila: … Oh, he doesn’t deserve for it to be off the record. (both crack up)
Bevin: I have some exes like that; I call it story-dropping, when I don’t use someone’s name, but I tell a story that’s honest, from my experience. With no identifying details.
Lila: The short version of the story is that, while I was on this road trip last year, he kind of came, sort of sniffing around again, and […] started wanting to sext, and was really trying to put me in a position of cuckholding and Femme-Domming him—
Bevin: Whoa.
Lila: And fin-domming him. […]
Fin-Domme (noun) = a financial Dominatrix, one who controls the finances of another in the context of kink play.
Lila: But not really, you know, where he wouldn’t actually give me the access that he said he was going to, you know what I mean?
Bevin: I hate that.
Lila: And he, you know, he w— he sent me like a little bit of money, and he was like, “I want you to go and get yourself some lingerie and use it with somebody and sent it to me, or, you know, he just was really, really p— and I was actually like, that sounds, that sounds kinda hot. That could— that could be fun. And then, he was like, “I’m going to—” and I was like, “If you really wanna make a girl feel good, you know. You need to listen to my work. Listen to all the—” You know, it was like, “You want me to Domme you? Listen to every episode.” He didn’t. And I was like, “You’re a terrible sub!”
Bevin: Yes! I 100% agree! If you wanna fuck someone— out there: If someone wants to fuck Lila (Lila giggles) listen to all the episodes. This is a basic tenet—
Lila: Right!
Bevin: Like at least, at least the last 10 episodes, and keep going, if your crush is still developing. This is 101 of like, being a content creator and having someone like, roll up and say they desire you.
Lila: Right!
Bevin: And like, they’re not even gonna, like!
Lila: And has no interest in actually looking at your work and what you’re doing in the world. And so, here’s what he did: He was like, “I’ll make it up to you, like, I will— I’ll become a patron.” And I was like, “Great.” He was like, “How much do you want me to do? I’m, I’m ready to do it. How much do you want me to do—”
Bevin: (overlapping) A hundred dollars.
Lila: And I said $300.
Bevin: 300! A month?
Lila: Yeah.
Bevin: Yeah!
Lila: And, he did it.
Bevin: Ohh!
Lila: And I got a message from a friend of mine who’s also a patron of mine, the next day that was like, “Congratulations on meeting your goal!” Because one of my goals was $300 and then I was gonna do a certain thing. Which I still need to do. I will do it. I promise. (both laugh) Record an episode about the beginning of the podcast, and… a bonus. So I was like, “Yeah, but it’s, I mean, it’s sort of a weird situation, tzzz, I’ll tell you about it later.” And then when the, when the month closed— he took it off.
Bevin: Nooooo!
Lila: And it never went through, and I was like, “That is so heinous. This is the most important thing to me. Why would you do that?
Bevin: Yeah!
Lila: And he disappeared.
Bevin: Ughhhhhh. […] I mean, Boo on him, and may the people out there who hear this story— do better.
Lila: Do better!
Bevin: […] I’ve been in the public spotlight for like, a real long time, probably— since 2002, when I was in a Drag King troup, and I was blogging on a different platform, back then — I have had a lot of dating encounters with people who know me publicly, and I can sniff out someone who’s legit, versus someone who’s not. And I’ve also dated people who didn’t know, what I did in the world, and like, appreciate people who consume my work, because I work really hard to create content — most of which is free — that helps people love themselves. And like, it’s so a part of my ethic, that like, if someone can’t even be bothered to like, listen to that stuff, I know they’re not even ready to be on that level with me.
Lila: I don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t see me.
Bevin: Yes.
Lila: And this is what I care so much about. (Bevin mmhms) If they don’t see that, they’re not gonna see me.
Bevin: Yeah and like they need to see and appreciate what you’re doing in this world, and how you’re contributing. […] I don’t want someone to want me because I’m famous, or because I do this work, and I don’t want someone to want me in spite of it— I want them to like appreciate the holistic version of me, that’s available. And know that like, what you’re hearing and what you’re experiencing publicly is still—
Lila: A part!
Bevin: — only part of it.
Lila: A part of you.
Bevin: Yeah.
Lila: Of course! And that they will have access to something different, and more, and, the rest.
Bevin: Yeah. (under her breath) Ugh! I can’t believe he pulled it.
Lila: I was sooo livid. (Bevin laughs) Oh my God.
Bevin: Yeah. I would have a lotta rage about that.
[1:07:45] Lila & Bevin return to talking about her first girlfriend.
Bevin: That was an amazing relationship, even though it was somewhat chaste, as relationships go for me now. We never had sex when we dated that time. We just made out. But— it was like, a serious love affair. I loved her— I still love her. Love them. They are no longer she-identified. But […] it definitely was a great breakup. So hurty. Had all of the, the fertile grounds for like, great self-growth. ‘Cause sometimes like, great hurt catalyzes transformation.
Lila: Sometimes it’s the only thing that does.
Bevin: Yeah. […] ‘Cause it’s like: Grow or Die. […] It’s what I’m doing now to combat uncertainty, it’s like— I’m doing a lot of self-development work. It’s like my primary: it’s self-care, then self-development, then hustle. (Lila mms) That’s the priority. Because, you know, everything falls into place if you prioritize and center self-care, and self-development— because if you’re willing to look at yourself, and willing to look at your fears, and willing to look at the things that you’re doing that are blocking your growth, you’ll just keep attracting more people into your life who are awesome, and also doing their growth-work, and, more success will come your way. I just really believe that; I’ve seen it— it’s funny because it’s both a faith activity and something I have experience with, like, I know that that’s how it works, because I’ve experienced that in the past.
they / them / theirs (pronouns) = gender-neutral pronouns for a person who does not identify with the gender binary. May also be used when one doesn’t wish to assume someone’s gender.
ze / zir / hir (pronouns) = gender-netural pronouns for a person who does not identify with the gender binary. May also be used when one doesn’t wish to assume someone’s gender.
[1:09:43] Back to Bevin’s first girlfriend. (See! I promised!)
Bevin: Oh! I didn’t talk about how we met! We met— it’s hard because I’m telling a story about a person who was identified as she/her at the time, […] and then, is they/them now. But at the time— Ani Difranco pictures all along the wall — this is 1998.
Lila: Yesss.
[…]
Bevin: So, seeing all that Ani Difranco, I was like, “Oooh, I’m getting a gaydar!” And also, […] I truly believe — and I’m so grateful that my first girlfriend was a soulmate of mine. I believe that we get to have lots of soulmates in this life-time, and I am grateful.
gaydar (noun) = gay raydar, the skill of intuiting when another person is gay.
Lila: What constitutes a soulmate?
Bevin: I think a soulmate is someone who is here to help you do your soul work. So, someone who is here to help you grow. It just doesn’t always mean that they treat you the best. (Lila sighs loudly) But they’re here like, to help— I believe like, before we come to earth, we get together with people in our like, soulfam, and we’re like, Okay, in this lifetime, you are going to: get engaged with me, cheat on me, and then leave me, like, you’re gonna do this, you’re gonna do that, you’re gonna be my signpost for this — and I think we have soulmates who help us do that hard work. And then we also have soulmates who are here to like, be a lamppost for us.
Lila: And she was one of your soulmates.
Bevin: Yeah.
horizontal with Bevin & Biscuit, as Biscuit makes a break for it. Los Angeles, CA. December 2018
Next week’s episode with Bevin, with the whole abortion story — which starts in college in 2001 — is available to patrons of $5 a month and up. Sign up, and I shall happydance.
