This is little Wry. He has the same haircut today!!
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Wry: I think it starts with very small statements of integrity. It’s something that takes time, and, and yet, sometimes it’s there instantly. It’s difficult to even answer this question, it’s like, How do you build love? How do you build connection?
Lila: Are there calibration tools you use?
Wry: Definitely. I mentioned face-slapping. Uh, when that first partner, that requested a smack to the face; I didn’t just punch her. I didn’t just, open hand, wail away. It was a very soft love tap. Soft enough to where she scoffed, “Ugh! C’mon!” You know, a certain level of, If you’re gonna do it, do it! But I still built up, my intent was always to have her begging for more, rather than calling red. (Lila mmhm’s) And in general, escalation, and begging, are a big part of my turn-ons. I’d much rather you beg for more than, go, past the line. So I try to build up. And, it’s a tease, with a lot of antici………pation. […]
Lila: Are there specific things, are there particular mediums that you use when you are laying a foundation for a Dom / sub relationship? (pause) […] You know how some people have their standard first date?
Wry: Right, a ritual.
Lila: And they take everybody on this, you know, it’s like this restaurant, and the mini-golf, and then the walk in Central Park, and that’s the thing? Or, or a series or a … what is it they call the pre-course reading? You know what I’m talking about? Not prerequisites, but uh—
Wry: Hmmm.
Lila: It’s optional reading, but (giggles) it kind of keys you in to the course you’re about to take.
Wry: It’s so different, every time, for me. It’s— it depends on how much they know of me and have witnessed me. I’ve, hosted many play areas where my duty is to oversee the area, provide the toys and the furniture, and to play with all comers. And, maybe they’ve done one of these initial scenes with me. And so I’m coming from a place of, very little negotiation, very little knowledge of who they are, maybe I don’t even know their name. Just a quick hit list of important details. Like, do you have any, major physical ailments I have to avoid. And, I’m only gonna go so far, when I have little, information. So it leaves a lot to the imagination… but if it’s a situation where, we are now in my home, and we’ve decided it’s time to play… I will often get out my entire collection of toys, and spread them out across the kitchen bar / table — and it takes up the entire space — I’ll see their eyes just get the size of grapefruits, looking at all the different options, and, maybe we’ll talk about the different ones, or maybe I’ll just select one of those toys, and I’ll say, “Tonight, you only get this toy.” You’ve gotta wait for the rest. (Lila giggles) And by, creating limits like that, it builds tension and desire, and a pace that can be maintained. Maybe every date they only get one new toy. That’s a lotta dates. And by that point, we really know each other.
Lila: So you often use denial as a tool.
Wry: Pacing. Yes.
Lila: You don’t want to call it denial.
Wry: Denial I think is much more … fun. And sadistic and torturous. (Lila giggles) Orgasm denial, taking you right to the edge, but refusing it at the last second. Just to leave you squirming. (Lila mmhm’s delightedly) So denial is, mm— different, than pacing.
orgasm denial (noun) = a sexual practice, usually employed by Dominants / Dommes / Sadists, in which a play partner is brought to the cusp of orgasm and then forbidden to come.
Wry: They’re related though. They’re both about anticipation and— having more to do next time.
Horizontal is the podcast of intimacies recorded while lying down, sharing a single pillow. If you’ve ever watched Slow TV, you’ll feel this: horizontal is like Slow Radio: it’s the wine after dinner, stories around a campfire, stargazing on a hill kind of aural experience. My goal is to make private conversations public, in service of dispelling shame, diminishing loneliness, and inspiring connection.
This is a wry Wry.
In this episode, I lie down with Wry of Wry Polytalks, a nonmonogamy consultant, a ringmasterish, kink-oriented Entertainer with a capital E, Dominant with a capital D, consent and social justice activist, public speaker, and the host of Wry Polytalks, panel discussions with relationship experts about nonmonogamous matters.
I first met Wry through his showmanship, when he hosted the Ethical Slut social at Hacienda Studio, the event space branch of my home, Hacienda Villa. He knows how to work a microphone, but the man doesn’t really need one. Even his inside voice is decidedly sonorous. His voice is like a glass of old whiskey and a rec room with burgundy leather armchairs. I’m just saying.
The first part of our conversation was released as episode 53 and titled sperm control: horizontal with a nonmonogamy consultant. We talked about playing 90210, internalized slut-shaming, relationship anarchy, sperm control, PREP, and how herpes is really not that big of a deal.
In this part of our talk, we discuss making precautions sexy, voyeurism and a hot branding scene, RACK, or, risk-aware consensual kink, building trust with a submissive, begging and antici…………pation, gracefully accepting rejection, and Wry tells me a story about a 30-minute adventure fuck with a total stranger.
Before you come lie down with us, I want to let you know about a change that’s coming up in the next few weeks. I have big big dreams for my intimacy work, like making a 45-minute pilot for a horizontal TV show, and I recently came to grips with the fact that I need more freedom to be able to achieve them. That means finances. I’m deeply committed to making this my career, and I’m still holding on to my intention to bring you independent, uncensored, and ad-free radio.
The podcast doesn’t break even yet. Patreon covers a little less than half of the monthly production expenses. And it’s time for my project to grow up. So I’m experimenting with different models of income.
Going forward, the second part of my conversation with each guest will be gated, meaning roughly every other episode will be free, and every other episode will be paid. All episodes will always be available to patrons at $5 a month and up!
If you enjoy lying down with us, and believe in my mission to spread intimacy across the globe, that’s how you can make sure that this podcast remains ad-free, and remains a podcast. Become a patron of the horizontal arts. Patreon is the love child of a subscription service and crowd-funding. You offer a monthly contribution, and you get a level of special access to me and my work. Patronage will unlock all the gated episodes.
And I just want to make this super clear: a lot of friends have told me that they’ve been hesitant to become my patrons because they feel embarrassed to only be able to give $2/month. But Oh My goodness, if everybody who loves the podcast or my writing became a patron at $2 a month, it would CHANGE MY LIFE. Every patron is so incredibly valuable to me, and the beauty of crowd funding is exactly like this – when many people give a little bit, it adds up to a lot, and then I can feel how many people out there believe in me and my mission to spread intimacy across the globe.
Speaking of horizontality, I send what I call “missives” to my email list once a week. (Well, once a week ish.)
I share my writing, I share resources from the episodes, links, videos, saucy photos, and other miscellaneous bits of ephemera, like articles written about my intentional community … To receive all that goodness directly in your inbox, sign up on horizontalwithlila.com and add lila@horizontalwithlila.com to your address book, for good measure. I’ve heard that my missives have gotten buried in some “Updates” in Gmail, or even that they’ve gone to (gasp!) Spam. They are not Spam. Please rescue them.
And now, come lie down with us in Los Angeles.
horizontal with Wry in Los Angeles, California, just before recording this episode.
Links to Things:
Patron of the horizontal arts!
nonmonogamyconsultant.com, Wry’s website for all things Wry (including a Wrybrary … get it?!)
Cycles & Sex, a conference about pussies, not bicycles, where Lila observed a workshop on sensation play — her favorite.
Lair de Sade, where a young Wry saw many a BDSM D/s scene during his formative years as a kinkster.
kinkster (noun) = a playful name for a person who identifies as kinky.
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to this website or my Patreon!):
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[8:50] Lila on taking precautions or limiting the scope of sexual contact with a partner who has HSV2.
Lila: I don’t want to be, with this delicious person and, and unable to focus on pleasure with them, because I am concerned. That would not be enjoyable.
Wry: Yeah, and their emotions might be pretty affected by your hesitancy.
Lila: I don’t think they are concerned. They, when they presented it to me, they said, “So I have this, just so you know.” I said, “I’m not sure what my risk-tolerance is.” They said, “No problem; there’s also all kinds of fun things we can do,” as you just said. “All kinds of lovely things we can do that are no risk, or very low risk.” And we did, some of those fun things. But also I, I really — I really like this, human, and I would, I would love to — (Wry and Lila laugh) I just clapped my hands together lightly. (both giggle)
Wry: To do more.
Lila: I would love to do more; yes.
risk-tolerance (noun) = one’s ability to tolerate uncertainty and / or danger.
[10:49] Wry on making the precaution sexy.
Wry: I think the people that have the best experiences with those type of things are the latex fetishists.
Lila: K— kinky, yeah, latex people, yeah.
Wry: Which is where I was first going with this, of all these other things you can do that are really fun. Whether it’s a vacuum bed, or just a latex outfit. When you make the precaution part of the kink, (Lila mmhm’s) and then you’re literally enjoying the precaution aspect, you’re, the sensation of the barrier becomes part of the joy of it. […] When you put on, a latex glove before you fist someone, or finger one.
Lila: (playful voice) Snap it!
Wry: That’s right. (Lila laughs) The powder, the texture, the color, the ritual of it. Now the precaution is sexy.
Lila: And can be a part of sensation play, which is my favorite thing. My favorite favorite thing. There was a little sensation play workshop by The Pleasure Chest at Cycles & Sex, and I just caught the beginning of it, but the demonstrator blindfolded their demo bottom, and, they were speaking about auditory sensations. And they had a paddle, and they were just thwacking it against their own hand… and they were saying how, you may not even use this implement on them. You might just use it for — auditory purposes—
Wry: Right.
Lila: — to— Oooh, that sounds— owuh, that sounds like a thwack. That sounds like it would, hurt so good.
Wry: I’ve cracked a whip, merely for the crack. (Lila giggles) And I know that this particular partner is not interested in, feeling the crack. (Lila mmhm’s) But I know the sound will have its impact.
Lila: So, we just had our first in-house, Villan-thrown play party. (Wry hm’s) So it wasn’t, a “Hacienda” party, which we assist with, but there’s that core team that’s been doing it a long time. It was a Villans party. And it was rainbow themed. And I did my first suspension—
Wry: Ohwow.
Lila: — with my, friend, and I was dressed as a unicorn, and so it was like the unicorn was caught in the rainbow ropes and (both laugh) and once he suspended me, we had these huuuuuge, I think it was 36 inch balloons that we’d stuffed with UV reactive confetti, and we were on the back, the back deck at the house, where they, they put a hard point. The balloons were up; they were caught by our little— we have like a little sun, visor kind of thing going on. A, a shade structure. And, Kenneth used the whip to, pop the balloons so that the confetti would shower over (giggling) me as the little unicorn, and the, you know, the people watching, the crowd. And I really enjoyed, the sound of it, and really did not want to feel it on my skin. (giggles) So I identify with that.
suspension (noun) = a kink scene in which the submissive is lifted off of the ground and hangs in the air, typically through the use of ropes, chains, or hooks.
[14:53] How did kink enter Wry’s life?
Wry: When I moved to L.A., 18 years old, straight white guy, nobody wanted me around. Except for the goth clubs. And, they were 18+, and very welcoming of, young weirdos like me. (Lila chuckles) And, I would witness demonstrations, performances: people tied up. Getting flogged, getting whipped, getting spanked. And I just… reveled in being a voyeur. And that it was encouraged. I had never been encouraged to stare. At a scene, or at an attractive woman before. (Lila hm’s) It’s so discouraged almost everywhere except for a strip club or a kink scene. Usually, you can feel others’ discomfort if you look even one second too long. But this is 20 minutes. Or more. And I definitely wanted to be the Top, the Dom. I wanted that power. I wanted someone … on their knees or on a cross, in front of me. I didn’t really, get the opportunity to do much of it. Until a few years later. When, I finally lost my virginity. Which, really more like sacrificed it, because I had been holding onto it while partners had been begging me for years.
Lila: Hmm.
Wry: About 4 years of that begging got pretty old. (Lila laughs) From 17 to 21.
Lila: And when you say virginity, I’m assuming you meant just the, the penis-in-vagina part of it.
Wry: The traditional, yes. The loopholes of oral and hand jobs didn’t count.
Lila: Anal?
Wry: Nope, didn’t count.
Lila: Anal didn’t count either!
Wry: No I mean, I didn’t do it.
Lila: Oh, you didn’t do it. Okay.
Wry: Yeah. Although I did mutual rim jobs before P-i-V. Anyway. My partners during that time were not virgins, and they were really hurtin’ for the lack of sex in their lives. And, finally, after about six months of having pret-ty tame sex with me, my partner got very frustrated with me. I’m inside her, and she says, “UGGGH, will you stop making love to me and just fuck me? Will you just do something? (Lila laughs) And I go, “Whaddyou want me to do?” You know, I’m still inside her during this, this bickering. She says, “I dunno, slap me in the face or somethin’!” So it jumped right to that. And she loved gettin’ slapped in the face, and it was hot, and I loved it too. And uh, the journey began.
Lila: Whoa-ho. There’s a zero to 60 inherent in that. (giggle)
Wry: Yeah and then within a couple of years, going to dungeons on a pretty regular basis. That were private, membership-only, and seeing all kinds of earthly delights. An’ eventually, learning how to do some of ‘em.
P-in-V aka P-i-V (noun) = slang / abbreviation for penis-in-vagina sex.
[18:46] Wry reminisces about a particularly hot scene.
Wry: I remember one of the most intense scenes that I saw during those formative years was at Lair de Sade, which has been an L.A. staple for a good 20 years. There was a, a dom and two subs and there was a candle burning between them. And the dom took, little metal pokers, little strips of metal that came to a point — not very sharp, and then heated up the poker in the candle (little mewl from Lila) and then drew on their backs, and they… they were being burned by these— this hot poker. It was essentially branding them. But I don’t think it was deep enough or pressed in hard enough to be particularly lasting. Like a brand would be. And I just remember the subs screaming, just screaming and one of them screams out, just shrieking, “I can’t decide if I want to live or die!” And just keeps saying that phrase while being burned. And that one sticks out still. That was over 10 years ago. Talk about definition of kinky. Right?
Lila: And, in you, did that kindle the desire to, bring someone to that point, to make someone feel that way?
Wry: It was just so captivating that they trusted their dom that much, to take them that far. And there was definitely a fetishization of danger and trust. (Lila mm’s) You hear phrases like safe, sane, and consensual … but I think that falls more into risk-aware kink, where, is it sane, is it safe? Enh! Who are we to judge? It’s obviously not safe; that’s the whole point.
Lila: Right!
Wry: But I think everyone in, involved was very aware of the risks they were taking, and the amount of trust and consent that was going on— to get to that point, to that place of intensity.
SSC aka safe sane and consensual = common terminology in the BDSM world, thought to be requirements for a healthy scene. Some kinksters prefer the term RACK (risk-aware consensual kink), which takes into account the fact that sometimes the play is actually unsafe, yet consensually agreed-upon by people who understand the danger they are trafficking in.
[21:18] How does Wry build trust with his subs?
[27:08] Lila on calibration, edge, and yoga.
[30:10]
Wry: My goal when it comes to… the intensity that is… altering, truly transformative, cathartic, transcendental, whatever fancy words we want to use. If you’ve called “red” at any point, truly red, not just “hey back off,” but red: stop immediately— you’re gonna lose some trust in me. That I’m not really reading you. (Lila mmhm’s) That I’m not empathic enough. Empathetic enough. And so I would rather give you the safe word of red, but then have you never use it, and then over the course of time, take you so deep that you’re nonverbal, non-responsive, completely tranced in subspace, to where your mouth doesn’t work, and that’s how far we’ve gone, and red was never spoken. And that’s not the first time, or the third time, or maybe even the 10th time, that we’ve played. And that’s what we’re building toward. And then once you’re in a nonverbal, state, where you can’t even signal me with your hands, there is no more safe words, I can’t trust that you can call red, so we both have to trust that I can read it. And then I’ll know to stop when it’s time to. I think that that’s getting into some serious risk-aware territory, that… you can’t play with on the first time. It’s incredibly dangerous— not only for the person on the receiving end, but, if we’re gonna take some analogies here: If a stranger walked up to me on the street and said, “Punch me in the eye,” I wouldn’t do it. They’ve, not only consented, but asked for it. But I don’t consent to the risk that I’m taking. (Lila mmhm’s) I’m not gonna do that. I’m not gonna be responsible for the damage that I’ve caused, even if they’re trying to take all responsibility. So it’s exploration of human experience, whether it’s yoga or meditation or religious ecstasy or BDSM, I think there’s a lot of crossover.
[32:52]
Lila: Something I’ve wondered about is, if it gets to the point where I would need to say “red,” would I even remember that the word is red?
Wry: (pause) There are times where, it’s a performance on a stage, and it’s loud, and there’s music, and there’s a value in calling “red” in that scenario, because, there’s a bit of disconnect. All those elements reduce the ability to read someone.
Lila: Yes.
Wry: So, I think it’s worth distinguishing between different shades of red, here. Where, yeah, I, I get what you’re saying. The, the m— the mind turns off and, can’t even remember your own name, let alone some color at that moment. There’s alternatives to red too, like jazz hands. Just twiddling your fingers. (Lila mm’s, Wry pauses) I tend to not rely on it; I don’t really trust it, that, during a cathartic intense scene, my sub will remember— to stop. So I’d rather … build on experience together, until I’ve learned the language of their body, and their response in subspace.
jazz hands (noun) = a gesture, named after the Bob Fosse-style dance hand position of open palms with spread fingers and either a rapid waving of the hands, or a twinkling of the fingers. When used in a BDSM or kink scenario, it can be a nonverbal safe word, a signifier that the submissive is getting close to an edge / has reached a point in which they want the play to stop or slow down.
Lila: Right, I was just thinking about that, that you must be, really reading subtle body cues — contractions in certain areas …
Wry: Yeah. And they’re unique to each person.
Lila: (overlapping) Breathing patterns.
Wry: (beat) There’s, similarities, between people. But sometimes, complete opposites. What one person responds with, the way their body reacts, the way they breathe or the sound they make, for that person it means more, for the other person it means stop.
Lila: Mph.
Wry: So it’s difficult to teach, reading subtle body cues, when different folks have opposite meanings, speaking different body languages.
[35:12] Lila wonders about how a person can be taught, particularly, those socialized as male in this society, how to read body cues — both invitations and rejections.
[36:00]
Lila: The affirmative, the— welcoming body language, the … positive varies so much as you just said—
Wry: Oh yeah.
Lila: From person to person. So you cannot teach a vocabulary, especially to s— to people who are not actually intuitive, empathetic humans, because, then they might say, “Oh but, but all those five things were happening! You know, she leaned in, and her— she touched her hair,” and (chuckling) you know, “She half-smiled, and.” And I thought, well maybe, what would be more effective would be for you to teach them how to read the negatives.
Wry: Yeah.
Lila: How to read when someone’s body tenses, when someone rounds their shoulders, when someone turns their body away or, or crosses their legs away or — and also teaching that this is not foolproof—
Wry: Right.
Lila: But that these are things that may happen when someone doesn’t want the attention that they’re getting from you.
Wry: I think a distinction worth making here is that when you’ve engaged in a consensual scene of BDSM, there’s been so much verbal and nonverbal communication leading up to that moment, and during that moment, which is quite different than, say you’re interacting with a stranger —
Lila: — Definitely, of course —
Wry: — or someone, or an acquaintance, and you just don’t know if there’s any interest there at all. At least when a scene starts, you can be fairly certain, they want to do a scene with you.
Lila: Right.
Wry: The details you’ve got to iron out, and read. But, does, the person that you’re making eyes at, do they want you to make eyes at them? Whoof. That’s hard. You know, sometimes you can even have a, a question violation. Just asking the question is inappropriate and painful. Whatever that question may be. The question could be, “Do you wanna fuck?” Out of the blue? At the bank? In line? That’s a wild-ass question.
Lila: Yeah. I don’t want that question as the first okcupid message either.
Wry: Right!
Lila: I really don’t.
Wry: Whereas, if you’re, at a swingers club, that might be a valid question. (Lila hm’s) Might not work! But it’s not gonna be as offensive as in line at the bank… So it’s, it’s really difficult to read, whether there’s interest or not. It’s much easier to read when you know there’s interest of some kind… it’s just different languages that you’re reading there… And then how do you respond to rejection.
Wry panel-ing.
[39:15] Wry on handling rejection with grace.
Wry: I know some folks who … reject all advances, in order to test the response to rejection. If you respond well to the rejection, then they change their answer.
Lila: Really?
Wry: They want to give you an immediate no, to whatever it is, that way they can see if you respect their no. And if you respect it, now you’ve got a chance.
Lila: And what would be an example of responding well?
Wry: (brief pause) Okay, just to demonstrate, I will ask you out to coffee now: Would you like to go to coffee with me sometime?
Lila: (playing along) I’m … not interested.
Wry: Thank you, I appreciate you just being straightforward with me, I just want you to know that things are cool, I’m not gonna make it, uh, awkward for us, and I’m, just happy to be your friend, so: don’t worry about it.
Lila: Thank you. I really appreciate that, Wry.
Wry: That was, just, a quick example, but, now that I’ve taken the pressure off, maybe you’ll think about it for a day or two, (Lila mmhm’s) maybe you’ll change your mind. Maybe you won’t. But at least you know that I’m’na respect your response, no matter what it is. And, I think respect is very sexy.
Lila: Agreed. It’s the exact opposite of the guy who tells you on the street that you’re gorgeous and then when you don’t respond, calls you a cunt.
[41:02] How Lila really doesn’t understand trolls.
[42:32] Wry on caring what other people think of you.
Wry: I think also that, reputation is incredibly important. I get a little frustrated sometimes, when I hear mottos about, Don’t care what other people think about you. Fuck that, I care a lot, about, what people think of me. I care about what you think of me. I care about what listeners to this podcast think of me. I don’t want people thinking that I’m a terrible person.
Lila: Sure.
Wry: I don’t want people to think that I’m, rude, or, invasive, or, all kinds of things— disrespectful. I want people to think good of me. Including that I’m rather unapologetic with my sexuality. But, that’s not hurting anyone. So, when you ask somebody out, and they turn you down, and you respectfully accept that rejection, word travels. People know that— you’re terrible and they know that you’re respectful. So when you’ve— went around your community and asked out a dozen people, and they’ve turned you down, they will talk about this. And, if you’re reacting poorly, on a regular basis, they’re definitely talking about it. So, give yourself a good reputation to live up to.
Lila: Kenneth often suggests, “Thank you for taking care of yourself.”
[44:18] Lila on Marcia B’s suggestions for gracefully saying no.
[45:13] Wry on receiving a no.
Wry: I typically, respond, just— instinctually, reflexively with “That’s okay! No big deal.” That tends to be what comes out of my mouth first, when I get rejected. And my primary concern at that point is to lower whatever anxiety that they have, or fear that they have, that there will be some kind of ramification for saying no. And I’ve been having this conversation with a lot of folks lately, where, people’s fear of what happens if I say no — (Lila mmhm’s) And if I’m on the receiving end of a no, I really want them to believe that nothing bad is gonna happen. Everything is gonna be okay. That life is not going to be suddenly worse, just because you said no.
Lila: Although, that is not true for a lot of people, and—
Wry: Right.
Lila: I have experienced— when someone has cornered me, and I’ve said no: then it’s weird. That then they ignore me or that then they are uncomfortable around me (big inhale) which… does not make me want to use my no, of course.
Wry: Right. I’ve experienced that too. People— people get pretty upset when I say no. You know, when people pursue me, and they get rejected, they’re usually not used to being rejected. (Lila mmhm’s) I think, that, if we wanna just talk about stereotypes for a moment, men approach and get rejected, often, and women approach less and get rejected less.
Lila: Yeah it’s a disproportionate burd— burden of approaching.
Wry: And… I have, approached enough times to where, it’s not a big deal, when I get rejected. I’m very much okay with it. I go in knowing a certain positive indifference, that, I’m’na give it a shot, but it’s okay either way. I don’t mind. Whereas, other folks that, they don’t experience rejection often, it’s absolutely devastating, to be rejected. And I’ve, witnessed such a thing and it’s, it’s an interesting burden where, if I’ve, said no to someone, I can see the pain that they’re in, on the receiving end of rejection, and I just feel the need to comfort them. Which can be really confusing! (Lila mmhm’s) That I’m now comforting, and saying no at the same time. I’m the source of the pain and the soothing of it. […]
Lila: Sure, that’s why I don’t like to say—
Wry: Right, an extra burden on you.
Lila: Because I don’t, I don’t want to feel that person’s pain— it’s really about me not wanting to feel their pain. (laughs lightly)
Wry: Yeah and why should you, on some level. Shouldn’t they take care of themselves and, make it easier on you?
Lila: Hm.
Wry: Yeah. We’re all just—
Lila: With practice, right? With practice and, that, that requires quite a bit of gracefulness, which I think can come from practice.
Wry: Yeah which means that, you’re gonna get it wrong, because you’re practicing.
Lila: Right.
Wry: You’re gonna be experimenting; mistakes are gonna be made.
Lila: And I have been the one who— there was an instance in which I was super flirtatious, with someone at a summer camp and — adult summer camp — and they later told me, “Hey, because of where I’m at, that is uh, pretty triggering to me” and I was like, “Oh, my God!” I— I had never been told that my flirtation triggered someone. Triggered something bad in them, that was… traumatic. And I completely kind of curled inside myself in relation to them, and, then they later approached me and said, “Hey you don’t have to—“ You don’t have to be weird, essentially. (Wry giggles) That’s not what they said, but—
Wry: Yeahh.
Lila: What they said was, “The feeling that I’m getting from you now is guilt. Is that true?” I said, “Yeah, I do. I feel guilty. For having … triggered you. With my flirtation.” And they said, “It’s really okay. I just, didn’t want it to continue and I wanted to tell you about it.” But that was the first time that I was on the stereotypically male side.
Wry: The pursuer.
Lila: Yeah— who made someone uncomfortable. And then was made aware of it.
[50:32] On pursuing and being pursued, both in-person and on-line.
[53:54] Wry reminisces about on-line dating on Craigslist.
Wry: I remember when, I first, started on-line dating, when I was 18 on Craigslist. First arrived in L.A., no friends, no social skills. (Lila giggles) And, it became really obvious that, if a woman were to put up a message in 2002 on Craigslist— within 24 hours, she’d have 150 emails in the inbox. (Lila mmhm’s) And, they would not only tell you this in these personals ads, but they would also create hoops to jump through, to prove you even read the ad. And, you know, “put this in your subject line” to prove you read it, (Lila hm’s) and then various questions, kind of like okcupid does today, to determine some kind of compatibility. And it was about just trying to filter and weed through the muck of it all. (Lila mmhm’s) Whereas, on my end, it was a pure numbers game. If I sent one, well-written email, it was a guaranteed no-response. My chances were low. Less than the roulette table. It was like winning the lottery to get a response, so, you start sending as many, as you can! (Lila mmhm’s) And that was the method at the time. And eventually it worked. And, the— I had, some very successful Craigslist relationships.
Lila: (in a bit of a cartoonish voice) And clearly folks are still using that method today!
Wry: Absolutely.
Lila: Because, at the end of my profile, I wound up adding: If you cannot be bothered to capitalize the first word in your sentence… If you do not use proper punctuation… If you cannot be bothered to spell out the words “you” or “are”… If all you say is, “Hey.” “How’s it going?” “What are you getting into this weekend?” Or some version of, “How is okcupid treating you?” I will most certainly not respond. And then in all caps I wrote: PAY ATTENTION. (laughs)
Wry: Right! I mean that’s classic, pursued language. You are the pursued. And you’re turned off by it. All that stuff’s annoying.
Lila: When it’s not thoughtful!
Wry: Yeah! Well, it’s usually not thoughtful. (pause, Lila sighs) Meanwhile, a whole lotta folks are desperately wishing to be pursued and they’re not.
Lila: Totally.
Wry: And, not being pursued is a turn-off and sad.
Lila: Yes.
Wry: Yep.
Lila: Because, what it comes down to is: You want to be pursued by the people you want to be pursued by.
[58:00]
Wry: Harassment’s a really broad term.
Lila: It is. But I think the common thread is that it is undesired.
Wry: (unconvinced) Yeah. I guess… the nature of rejection is undesired, too. Like if someone asks me on a date, and it’s undesired, I say no. And there’s nothing wrong with that. There has to be something else to it. Like—
Lila: Definitely.
Wry: — they keep pursuing. Or they’re stalking me. Or they have power over me. (Lila mmhm’s softly) I guess I just don’t want to demonize “no.” ‘Cause, you know, unwanted sexual advances, romantic advances— it should be as simple as an honest simple “no,” with no coercion or pressure or consequences to it. Which kind of takes us full circle to the idea of, really letting people know that it’s okay. That they said no, and it’s totally cool. (Lila mmhm’s softly) As opposed to, an epithet afterward. Some kind of, hurled insult. (chuckle)
[1:00:00] What is Wry’s current constellation?
constellation (noun) = the series of interconnected romantic / sexual relationships that span out from a nonmonogamous person.
[1:01:26] After his breakups last year, what has shifted in the way that Wry approaches relationships?
Wry: I think, when it comes to communication, you know, there’s always the polyamory mantra: Communication, communication, communication. (Lila chuckles lightly) But one of the things that I’ve changed this year is, the type of conversations that are had on a first date. I used to be, much more concerned with, being sexy, and being fascinating, and being… conversant on topics that will lead to sexy things eventually. And now I’m much more concerned with, Let’s dig in to the heavy dark stuff. And if you don’t want to tonight, that’s cool. I’m letting you know that I’m ready when you’re ready. So, next date, third date, fifth date, tonight, whenever, let’s talk about some dark stuff. Let’s talk about the hardest moments in our lives. The things that we’ve survived. The things that’ve forged who we are in response to them. The transformative moments where we’ll never be the same. And that’s not particularly sexy conversation in a traditional arousing sense.
Lila: But it is the kind of conversation that produces intimacy.
Wry: Exactly. And intimacy is sexy.
Lila: Very much so.
Wry: And, in that paradigm, making it feel comfortable that, we can cross that intimacy threshold, and we don’t have to be sexy! We could just decide, that we’re gonna be friends. That we’re going to have, the kind of bond that we’ve had so far, which has been conversational. So while intimacy is sexy, it’s no guarantee of sexiness. But it’s an overall valuing of trying to figure out who you really are, and the compatibility of all that, rather than, sex first… So that’s been the biggest change is: I’m a lot better now at creating space for people to feel comfortable talking about, the deep dark stuff.
[1:04:09] Wry & Lila talk philosophies on non-fiction storytelling.
[1:06:55] Lila’s gratefulness for her most recent ex, who gave her free reign to speak about any aspect of their relationship that she deemed necessary.
[1:08:41] Wry tells Lila a story about a wild fuck with a stranger.
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