And this is Fiona …
http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/6395950
Fiona: When I first found the community, [note: the Hacienda community] it felt like Wonderland. (Lila giggles) It felt like I was at a candy store, where for the first time I could actually— taste all the flavors. (Lila mm’s) I think since then, now, about eight months in, I’m … a little polysaturated … but still excited, about all the different flavors. So, when I first found the community, it was, it was that, it was a— living of my dream. “I want this and I like—” And it’s, what I like are qualities, are the different qualities in people. And it works for me because: not everyone can satisfy all my needs and desires. (Lila mmhm’s) And very little of it has to do— with—- sex. I mean, some of it does, but. The way someone talks to me, the way someone touches me, the space someone is willing to give me. Or just the way someone holds me or approaches me, I can get different experiences of all of those things from many different people … and it’s okay.
Lila: Do all of your needs and desires require satisfaction?
Fiona: Satisfaction…
Lila: Yeah.
Fiona: I think so—
Lila: Do they all need to be fulfilled for you to be– happy?
Fiona: Mmmm … I find them being filled very easily! (Lila hmm’s) So I don’t know what it’s like to not have them! (both laugh) But I don’t think so. I think— I know how to find happiness regardless of what I— have or don’t have. I’ve come to learn that it’s not about getting what I want, it’s about (almost whispering) loving what I have. (Lila hm’s) And I think that’s how I’m able to enjoy so many people also. Because if I’m with someone, I immediately seek their best qualities… more fun.
Lila: Do you think that means that you don’t have to experience their worst qualities, because you only dip into their lives, a little bit?
Fiona: Yeaahhs, that is what it means!
polysaturated (adjective) = slang in the polyamorous community for: I’m pretty full up on lovers / romantic relationships at the moment.
*
Lila: This one time, I was in summer camp. (Fiona mmhm’s) Acting summer camp. (Fiona mmhm’s) Musical theatre. And I choked on a gobstopper— which, I wasn’t really choking, it just got lodged in my throat, (Fiona mm’s) but I got very scared. (Fiona mmhm’s) And very nervous and I went to the hospital (Fiona mmhm’s) and my dad came and picked me up — I was probably, eleven — because it was before my parents got divorced. I was still living in the house in Freeport, but I was old enough to know— I knew what porn was. (Fiona mmhm’s) And he picked me up from the hospital and took me home— my mom was maybe, she was studying drama therapy at NYU and she was maybe at class or something, and so he picked me up and took me home and said, you know, “Go in your room and lie down.” And, I went in my room and I lay down and then I got up, and, where I was, situated in the house, I could step out of my door and there was a bit of a wall extended, to where I— if I peeked out my door, I could see the TV, but nobody in the living room could see me. (Fiona mm’s, then begins to gasp) So I peeked out the door, and my dad was watching porn. (Fiona gasps, then giggles) And I was like, “Really? He just had to finish the video?!” You know? Just had to finish it! And, then I later I, I looked at the video boxes that he was returning, and it was called: Dirty Debs.
Fiona: Dirty Debs.
Lila: Dirty Debs. And I remember that, I remember being like, “Gross! Ew! That’s disgusting!” And, you couldn’t even, just like, not watch the rest— you had to watch the rest of the fucking video? (Fiona laughs) Come on! I guess, I was so—
Fiona: At least he wasn’t ma— was he masturbating?
Lila: — resentful! I didn’t see because I didn’t see the r— living room!
Fiona: Right.
Lila: I just saw the TV.
Fiona: You just saw the TV.
Lila: Yeah, and I was like, I went back into my room—
Fiona: Boy! Lila: I was like “Ewww!” (Lila laughs)
Fiona: I used to— man, parents and sexuality is so strange, I was traumatized growing up, having to hear my parents have sex sometimes.
Lila: Ohhh.
Fiona: That was the worst. Oh God it was awful. I used to— force my mom to sleep with me just to prevent it from happening.
Lila: (laughing) Ohohohoho.
Fiona: It’s just— not … and so the porn I found was also my father’s, and I felt this, just, rage, for their rudeness. I thought it was so rude! (Lila laughs) That they would have sex while we were there! And so, that’s what I was thinking about when you were telling your story—
Lila: Couldn’t they just be quiet?
Fiona: I know! Or couldn’t they just do it at a time when we weren’t there?
Lila: Right.
Fiona: Which was, never. (Fiona laughs) Which I didn’t think about, obviously, at the time, but—
Lila: it’s so interesting, I remember someone saying — I don’t know where I read it but it was so accurate, it said — parents and children are not supposed to be anywhere near each other when desire is present.
Fiona: Whoa.
Lila: It might have been Esther Perel; I will look it up. (Fiona mm’s) But— it’s so true.
Fiona: It’s so hard.
Lila: It seems so wrong, right? (Fiona mm’s) And yet— there are cultures in which everyone’s sleeping in a big tent—
Fiona: Right.
Lila: You know, the kids over here, the parents over there—
Fiona: Yeah.
Lila: The parents are— making love.
Fiona: Yeah!
Lila: And— what would it be if we didn’t grow up thinking it was disgusting, (Fiona mm’s) the fact that our parents have sex?
Fiona: What would it be … ? I would be a lot more relaxed about that thought, if it were the opposite, growing up. I don’t know how I learned that.
Lila: But everybody thinks that, right, the, like, I don’t— Oh! That’s disgusting! Oh, I don’t wanna think about that! Uhh ugghh ughhhh!
Fiona: Yeah, but how else?
Lila: How else do you exist?
Fiona: Yes!
Lila: Yeah, yeah. So the stigma, or the— it’s ingrained so early on (Fiona mmhm’s) — that’s, that’s gross and it’s private, and nobody else should hear it—
Fiona: Man! Where did I, how did I learn that?
Lila: It’s just everywhere in culture, right? Jokes are made about it in movies.
Fiona: Hm. But somehow, I knew, because I had, even the experience— despite my outrage for it, it still happened. It happened multiple times. I remember every single time it did. And one time it happened, when we had a ton of family over! And it was a— the house was full of people. It was dawn— because I remember being woken up by them— (Lila mm’s) we were, my sister and I were sleeping on a mattress on the floor in their bedroom because the house was so full, and they were still! (Lila laughs) So I was, I was trau— I just was so — hurt.
Lila: How rude!
Fiona: I thought, “This is terrible, this is—” I would, I was, in physical pain, and I started crying. (Lila nn’s) I just couldn’t take it. I felt— I don’t know what it was. I mean and, I think, some Freudian?
Lila: Oh, some Freudian—
Fiona: Theories. Were involved in, in my experience of it, because — and this is my only explanation for it, because, my dad, having seen me crying, stopped, came towards me, patted my— my shoulder and told me, “It’s just love. It’s just love.” And— that made me cry even more!
Welcome back to the second episode of the second season! Horizontal is the podcast that makes private conversations public, or, to paraphrase listener ghostheart, the podcast that “takes you into my bed and lets your ears watch as I unzip intimate conversations.” It is recorded while the opposite of vertical, wearing robes.
In this episode, I lie down with my sweet friend Fiona. Fiona is an architecture student, a first generation Nuyorican, a bisexual woman, and one of the most deliciously sensual humans I’ve ever known. At the time of this recording, she was giving erotic massage at a Tantric Temple, which is where she headed right after we finished.
I was in— a bit of a state when she left, and for months afterwards, she was a bit worried about me, and regretted having to run off before we came to a natural close. She wanted to meet up again to enact, or record, a more ceremonious ending, and we have gotten together to debrief. But since this was the way it happened, I left the recording like this. It feels complete to me.
In the first part of our episode, titled “for people who aren’t looking to fall in love: horizontal with a bisexual slut,” we talk about being child-free, various forms of birth control, swallowing come, tumblebugging, and coming out as poly.
In the second part of our episode, we discuss these slut protocols, bicuriosity, a breakup, sexual sobriety … and … I make an erotic confession. Or two. Possibly three.
If you enjoy lying down with us (as well you should!), become a patron of the horizontal arts. Patreon, the website that gives artists a platform to crowdsource income, can make it possible for a modern day broadcaster-golightly, such as myself, to make independent, uncensored, and, to this day, ad-free work. For five dollars a month I’ll add you to my secret FB group, where I post behind-the-scenes photos and curate the most fascinating articles about love, sex, and relationships. There are lots of other perks as well, like quarterly lullabies sung by Lila (really!) and free tickets to live horizontal storytelling shows, where you can lie down with us in person.
For now you can lie down with us … in your mind.
Links to things:
horizontal’s Patreon, so that you can, in the words of my newest patron, “water the seeds of what you love so that it can grow!”
Skirt Club, a party for bicurious women to explore their … curiosity. I first heard about it on episode 04: Exploring Sexual Fluidity & Bicuriosity for Women (featuring Skirt Club and Dr Michael Aaron) of my friend Bryony’s podcast, “Future of Sex,” and then my friend Wednesday Martin (author of a forthcoming book about female sexuality) wrote a couple of articles about it: Understanding Skirt Club, and Inside ‘Skirt Club,’ Hollywood and New York’s “High Glamour” Sex Party for Women Only.
Reid Mihalko’s version of the slut protocols.
Show Notes (feel free to share quotes/resources on social media, and please link to iTunes, this website, or my Patreon!):
iTunes link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/horizontal-with-lila/id1238031115&ls=1
website link: https://horizontalwithlila.com/
Patreon link: https://www.patreon.com/horizontalwithlila
[3:28]
Fiona: So I felt very safe with women very early on and then, in high school, I identified as bicurious, where I was down for anything, let’s do it, anything, and I’ll get drunk and make out with girls, that was, that was my, routine I—
Lila: M.O.?
Fiona: Yeah. And then, after high school, in college, I w— had, immense penis envy in high school, I really resented— being a woman during my years in high school and I thought, “Ughhhh, I wish I could just … be with a woman!” And then I guess, Amanda was the first one that really, expressed an interest to be with me, romantically, and I really ran with that.
bicurious (adjective) = sometimes referred to as a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale, the characteristic of being intrigued by the possibility of sexual/romantic interaction with someone of the same sex
Kinsey scale (noun) = a spectrum of sexuality that ranges from fully heterosexual (having no interest whatsoever in “same” sex sex, considered a 0) to bisexual (having interest in “both” sexes sexually, marked as a 3) to fully homosexual (having no interest whatsoever in sex with the “opposite” sex, denoted by a 6).
penis envy (noun) = the premise, supposed by Sigmund Freud, that people with vaginas covet the genitals of people with penises. [controversial]
[4:20] How does Fiona feel about porn?
[4:47] What happened after Lila choked on a gobstopper at summer camp?
[9:06] The time Fiona’s family was visiting and everyone overheard her parents.
[10:18] What does her dad make of the way Fiona behaved towards her mother as a child?
[11:06] An erotic confession that Lila makes to Fiona.
[11:31]
Lila: I would say that I’m probably a 1 — 2 questioning — on the Kinsey scale. (Fiona mm’s and mmhm’s) I would— I would call myself bicurious. I’m interested in going to Skirt Club.
[12:24] Lila makes another erotic confession to Fiona.
[13:19]
Lila: I’ve noticed that when I think about women, I fixate on their breasts. (Fiona mm’s and mmhm’s) That’s what really excites me. So I’ll think about…
[13:52] Lila on trying to unravel her feelings about promiscuous people.
Lila: I’ve been trying to unravel my feelings about promiscuous people… because, when I’ve— learned that someone that I’m interested in sexually is promiscuous, I immediately feel a closing down of my aperture. (Fiona mm’s) It must be partly because I’m not very risk-friendly. (Fiona mmhm’s) And so, opening myself up exponentially to more risk, I think affects my, my desire to open. (Fiona mmhm’s) But also, I mean I don’t want to— that’s sex-negative, to sit in judgement of people who are promiscuous— and I’m not judging it as an overall thing, right, I think it’s perfectly okay for anybody to have any amount of partners that they want to have, but when I think about allowing a person like that to enter my body …
Fiona: Mmhmm, yeah, you’re taking on all their energy and all their partners.
Lila: Yeah! And I have done so, with someone who was, I think, totally unsuitable for me as a partner. (Fiona mm’s and mmhm’s) This German guy who’s very— I experienced him towards me as very cold and (Fiona mm’s) just— dry. And I saw him with his partners, and he was much warmer, and loving and caring. He just didn’t — for whatever reason — deem me worthy of that (Fiona nn’s) love and care. Which, I find that devastating.
Fiona: Yeah.
Lila: So I have this complicated reaction to promiscuity— on the I, I also really envy and admire people who are attracted to so many people (Fiona mm’s quietly) because I’m attracted to so few people. (Fiona mm’s quietly again) And… it hasn’t really helped me out! You know? (both laugh)
Fiona: It does have its benefits. You’re safer.
Lila: Yes.
Fiona: You attract less creepy people.
Lila: (decisively) That’s true. (laughs)
Fiona: You don’t have to— it’s easier to— it’s easier to say no, having had more practice.
Lila: I try never, it— I actually am not very good at saying no (Fiona mm’s) I’ll, I’ll, admit to you. (Fiona mmhm’s) What I’m really good at, is avoiding situations in which I will have to say no.
aperture (noun) = on a camera, the opening which allows light in, which can be opened or closed. Lila uses it to refer to emotional / sexual / romantic openness, which can be expanded or contracted, depending.
sex-negative (noun) = the default attitude that sex is inherently somehow dirty, shameful, or uncouth.
[16:29] Lila would like to be able to be less worried about hurting other people’s feelings.
[16:48]
Lila: I won’t hurt my own feelings by saying yes to something that I physically don’t want to do—
Fiona: Right.
Lila: But in small ways I do, like letting somebody hug me who I— I just don’t really want to be hugging them, or I don’t really want to be hugging them right then.
[17:04] Has Fiona always felt herself attracted to lots of people?
[17:20] Fiona on how the Hacienda Community felt like a candy store.
[19:47] Fiona on her slut protocols. [Here’s Reid Mihalko’s version of the slut protocols, as well.]
slut protocols (noun) = slutty rules of engagement, such as no sleepovers, no weekend getaways, and only seeing/communicating with lovers at intermittent intervals.
[19:53]
Fiona: Slut protocols are for people who aren’t looking to fall in love, because when, when you play the way I do, with flirtation and light play and— with many different people, uh, commitment, and long-term relationships are— inhibiting to that kind of lifestyle. So, while I’m still craving this lifestyle that I have now, I ascribe to the slut protocols, which inhibit the imprinting of what happens when you fall in love with someone. And so the protocols are: No sleepovers. And it— it’s interesting because I, I started calling them the slut protocols in a PDF document with them listed. (she laughs) But prior to actually being formal about them, I was already practicing these things and having to justify or explain and apologize to partners who would— ask why I wouldn’t spend the night. And I just— I didn’t desire to connect that deeply. And I, I recognize that that— might be something I’m missing out on. However, I feel like it’s there for me whenever I am ready for it. So—
Lila: What are the other ones?
Fiona: And the other ones are: limiting or moderating the amount of contact outside of time spent together in person — because that also causes imprinting, if I’m sending you lovey-dovey messages and memes and texting all day … so, monitoring that. No weekend getaways. Because, with the sleepovers and the, the long-term, like, spending consecutive days together, that’ll— and these things are okay if you’re ready for what comes after. (Lila mmhm’s) Which is, a drop in seratonin and dopamine and—
Lila: These are all the things that I like best, by the way, these are— all the things that you’re listing, that you don’t do, are all the things that I want. (Fiona mmm’s) From my relationship. (laughs)
Fiona: They’re great, and I do, I do engage—
Lila: Like, I care about them so much more than, (Fiona mmhm’s) than the sexual play. I love to be sexual and sensual with my partner, but (Fiona mmhm’s), but that’s really the— those are the irreplaceables, like, those are the … the things that I’m going to miss.
Fiona: Hmm. That’s fascinating, how little I desire it!
Lila: That is fascinating.
Fiona: Yeah! Because I, I love the connection and when I am with my partners, I feel genuine and, and really present with them, when I am with them. However, something in me— it’s almost like, I just love the feeling of “To Be Continued.”
[23:21] How can Fiona tell when her lifestyle teeters into non-sober behavior?
[24:19]
Fiona: I own all of my decisions today, which is something that I couldn’t say five years ago. (Lila hm’s) And, I think, there is something, there— absolutely is, like, sex is intoxicating, it is. And I think what allows me to feel sober about my behavior is: not feeling ashamed for my pleasure. Owning my pleasure and enjoying my pleasure. (Lila mmhm’s) And seeing it as pleasure. And then walking away from that and knowing that … I had so much pleasure!
[24:51] What does Fiona disclose to play partners at a party, as opposed to a date?
[26:11] Lila makes another erotic confession, about a particular fantasy.
[28:15] What complicates this fantasy?
[28:50] Fiona and Lila’s ex and Burning Man.
[29:57] Lila on her recent breakup, and the thought of her ex having sex with someone else after being fluid-bonded for a year.
[30:34]
Lila: (voice breaking) I technically broke up with him two months ago, because he yelled at me in a public place. And it’s not just because of that, but that was a symptom of these deeper anger issues and the way that his, his alcoholism, his tendencies, as an alcoholic— towards selfishness and, towards self-righteousness and towards anger, really inflame my, my codependent tendencies.
Fiona: (sympathetically) Yeah.
Lila: And, he made a scene, he yelled at me in a, in a Juice Press, it was really embarrassing. And I said, “I’m not going to speak to you like this.” (Fiona mmhm’s) “When you’re like this. I am leaving.” (Fiona mmhm’s) “We can talk later.” But what he was saying was this, this stuff from his family, he’s like— it was so stupid, I w— I had invited him to be my guest at somebody else’s yoga class. (Fiona mmhm’s) Which is a favor, so I called in a favor, and I said, “But you need to— you need to show up for this one, you can’t just cancel, because this is a favor I’m calling in from somebody else, and he said, “I will show up,” and he was too late. And he missed it. (Fiona mm’s) And, he was mad at himself.
Fiona: Right.
Lila: And he wasn’t there when I left the class. (Fiona mmhm’s) And I was, low blood sugar and I needed to get something in my body, so I started walking towards this Juice Press and I texted him that I was going there and he was confused and he went to a different shop a couple blocks over and he— was mad that I didn’t wait for him and he was mad at himself for, for, m— you know, missing the class that I told him to be on time for, and, and then he yelled at me! I said, “I was just taking care of myself.”
Fiona: Right.
Lila: And he said, “Yeah, you’re really good at that,” as though it were a bad thing.
Fiona: Right.
Lila: And, this is exactly what I have been working on, in my, now, almost ten months I think, in CoDA. That’s exactly what I’m working on is making sure I’m taking care of myself.
Fiona: Yeah.
Lila: And not just catering to other people’s needs. And I’m proud of what I’m doing!
Fiona: Absolutely.
Lila: It’s good that I’m taking care of myself! And he made it into, you know, “My family sees it and my friends see it.”
Fiona: Oof.
Lila: This thing about— accusing me basically of being selfish though he didn’t use that word.
Fiona: (quietly) My father does that. My father has untreated alcoholism. (Lila sniffles) And has said the same exact thing. It’s a low blow. But it comes from a place of insecurity and fear. Did he apologize later?
Lila: Yeah, sure, he always apologizes later! Which is good, it’s good that he can apologize; it’s good that he’s working on his— himself and his sobriety, it’s good, but—
Fiona: yeah, it’s so—
Lila: I don’t deserve that!
Fiona: No, no.
Lila: (voice breaking) I’ve been really good to him. (begins weeping) I’ve been really good to him and— (shaky in-breath) and I feel so hurt and offended that his family doesn’t like me and won’t give me … a chance, even though, it’s probably— I mean, actually that’s one of the reasons why we’re not well-suited for long-term, because, without the family support — and his family is so important to him and he’s so influenced by his family, to, I think, a d— a really, almost detrimental degree, like I think that it’s so overboard, how influenced he is by his family that it’s, it’s almost, juvenile.
horizontal with Fiona in Williamsburg just before this recording session.
[34:08] Lila tells the story of Alex’s 5-year sober ceremony, and why his family doesn’t much care for her.
[38:44]
Lila: When I, broke up with him, then it was happening less frequently, but I still went out there, and I still, you know, we still were spending time together — and that’s the thing, you didn’t know, because we, for all intents and purposes, looked like we’re still together, and had been acting like we were still together. Being intimate, being each other’s person, texting and sharing photos and and being that— he set up, for the podcast launch party, he broke down for the podcast launch party, he— you know, has, still been that person for me. And, it felt like after I broke up with him, he, suddenly became this incredible boyfriend.
Fiona: Oh, wow.
Lila: And was so kind, and so loving. And so I didn’t want to say, “Yes, let’s try again,” he was— saying “I wanna do the work, I wanna try and fix this, I—” and I was hesitant to say yes, I said, “I don’t know.” Several times when we had several conversations we had over the past, ten weeks or so, maybe three months. (big breath) Because, I didn’t want him to go back … to … the way he had been treating me, which is that he really didn’t seem to value me very much. He was taking me for granted. And I’m thinking, gosh, it’s only a few months! How are you taking me for granted? What’s our life going to be like if after a few months you’re already taking me for granted?
[40:08] On Alex and family.
[41:06] Lila weeps.
[41:54] Fiona tells Lila a story about her surprise half-birthday with five or six of her lovers.
Fiona, heart-strong, at Burning Man
http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/6395950
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