123. this ritual is horizontal: mash-up with a wizard podcast [1 of 2]

Devin Person, my Wizard Friend. Image by Mark Shaw Studio

123. this ritual is horizontal: mash-up with a wizard podcast [1 of 2]

Hello horizontal lovers & ritualists, horizontal is the podcast about sex, love, & relationships of all kinds, recorded while lying down. this ritual is horizontal is part of my Season 4, the Season of Experiments.  Usually, I have a guest or two reclining next to me, sharing a pillow, but This Season in the Era of Covid, my guest is often lying down across the world from me, as Devin is here…

Devin: How do we create, not just connections but, how do we create this engagement across distances, and especially with the digital divide where, there’s something that just doesn’t feel the same about a Zoom call or a text message or any of the ways that we have to relate. I don’t think the technology in itself, is entirely to blame, but I think, it presents a challenge that has to be tackled with thought and ingenuity, to really truly engage and maintain that relationship.

Lila: Is it possible for something to feel visceral and corporeal when it is not possible to be corporeal? When it is not feasible to be in person. And maybe… maybe not, and maybe there is a, a holding of this paradox or, a holding of two simultaneous truths: That it is not as good, and also there is great depth and benefit that we can find from it. And maybe a third one that’s like, This is all we have right now. (laughs)

Devin: Is a boring conversation with a co-worker in person more alike, […] an in-person conversation, are they all more alike in a certain, specific, meaningful way, than these other forms of digital intimacy? (Lila mmm’s) If you stay up all night texting back and forth with somebody, maybe that’s an amazing connection in its own right, but it’s still categorically different than if you sat across from them, having that conversation.

Lila: Yes but not— […] I do not think that the surface-level, water cooler conversation, will, be more nourishing, just because it is in person, than the deep, all-night texting conversation— even though texting feels so much more removed. Because for me, as I, as I think about intimacy, as I try to define it, as I begin to work on something that could be spun into a TED Talk, I think about the need to, see deeply, see the person deeply, and, feel deeply seen, in return. If you have that, but it is mediated by, a telephone, or a device, a computer… I still think that will be… more of an antidote to loneliness, than, a, quick chat with your barista.

Devin: Yeah.

Lila: I mean. That’s not a great example, because, I had very deep connections with my baristas. (laughs lightly for a while)

Devin: I was just thinking it’s almost like, different vitamins, or maybe it’s like, vitamins and fiber. Like, you could have a diet that has all the vitamins you need, but it doesn’t have any fiber, and it’s not gonna be good for you, and I think maybe that’s what we’re experiencing right now, where it’s like OH, I’m in quarantine, and I’m seeing friends on Zoom calls and meeting with co-workers and having phone catch-ups with family or friends or lovers, whoever it might be, but, we’re missing some of those daily roughage of standing next to people, asking someone what time it is, talking to a co-worker about Game of Thrones, all of these things that feel banal in a certain sense, but probably also are very important and, like I was saying earlier, they’re a feast for the senses, especially the unconscious things that we notice, in-person, and we can observe a more complete view.

Lila: I would say we’re getting most of our nutrients, but we’re missing something like Iron.

Devin: Yeah.

Lila: So we’re anemic. Right, so we’re getting most of what we need because most of us l— well, that’s not true, actually. According to studies, many many people would not say they had one close friend, so, we can’t say that most of us do, but many of us have deep connections with people that we’re not physically with, that we can talk to over Zoom or on the phone or text, and so we’re getting, a battery of nutrients— let’s say we’re getting our Vitamin B and we’re getting our Vitamin C and, maybe we’re not getting as much Vitamin D, ‘cause we’re not getting the sun, but, but let’s say we’re getting most of our nutrients, but we’re missing something that is essential to, I’m gonna say, human thrival.

Hello horizontal lovers & ritualists,

horizontal is the podcast about sex, love, & relationships of all kinds, recorded while lying down. this ritual is horizontal is part of my Season 4, the Season of Experiments.

Usually, I have a guest or two reclining next to me, sharing a pillow, but This Season in the Era of Covid, my guest is often lying down across the world from me, as Devin is here… and we have an intimate, vulnerable, long-ranging and long-form conversation that unfolds over the course of 3 – 5 hours, and gets divided into 2 – 4 episodes. Typically, the first half of our conversation is available in all the podcast places, and the latter half is available exclusively to patrons of the horizontal arts.

In the latter part of this conversation, which will be episode 124 on horizontal, we discuss a bit of ghosting wizardry, dating reviews, self-holds, and parenting our inner child. Then I tell Devin a story about being photographed nude in a nest, and the most miserable sexy dance party, and Devin conjures a 3-point spell for alchemizing connection across distance. One way to gain access to episode 124 is to become a patron of the horizontal arts on Patreon.

Patreon is a portal to the work of the modern-day independent artist, like the love child of crowd-funding and a subscription service. A monthly contribution to my Patreon unlocks over 50 exclusive episodes, and a monthly contribution to Devin’s Patreon offers you access to magical rituals centered around numbers of, shall we say, modern-day interest — one of which I participated in. The number: was 69, and the episode is titled “How to Pleasure Yourself and Others.” Last night, I listened back to it (for the first time since the recording) and got turned on! so I highly recommend it.

Become a Patron!

The other way is this — as a rare gift in honor of our collaboration, you can gain access to the full episode if you head over to Devin’s this podcast is a ritual feed, even if you aren’t a patron of the horizontal arts! Which means, if you are listening to this on Devin’s feed, you get the whole thing right now.

The experiment of this episode is a mash-up, my very first mash-up episode. When I think about mash-ups, I think of some intrepid songstress like my friend Meghan Tonjes and the way she puts two pop songs in a blender on YouTube and makes something creamily delicious — both capturing the infectious joy and the hook-iness of the original songs, and somehow also more than that, the alchemy of two entities enjoined, creating something that does not exist before they are enmeshed.

In other words: Magic.

In this part of our conversation, I tell Devin the story of Hamilton & the Hondalorian, and we talk about:

connecting across distance
phone calls vs. video calls
charting-new-territory friends and rerun friends
the nutrients of digital communication
the joy of sexting
the Seamlessification of dating
resilience, rejection, & confidence
& icing on Tinder

Through the Magic of the interwebz, come lie down with us in Canggu, Bali, Indonesia, Louisville, Kentucky, and wherever you find yourself horizontal.

Pre-recording selfies in an era when we could be horizontal in the same place at the same time. Two of my Season 3 horizontal episodes: 85. well-hung psychedelic sex wizard / no hookups, & 86. you’re trying to porn sex me, feature Devin & his Best Wiz, Kevin!

Links to Things:

Devin’s Wizard website

The Atlantic article, “Why Are Young People Having Less Sex”

Show Notes:

(if you quote from this resource, please link back to the post or the horizontal Patreon!)

[:39] In his introduction, Devin poses the question, “What does it mean to be together?”

[3:50] In her introduction, Lila talks mash-ups

[7:43 – 9:29] Devin gives us the Magic word: Engagement

[9:30 – 11:56] Lila’s lover doesn’t ask about her past, but does download after each sexual session. Devin suggests the question, “What do you want to know about me?”

[11:56 – 21:48] Lila tells Devin the story of her friend Jon, Hamilton & the Hondalorian.

Hamilton day! 2018

[22:13] The question(s) of the hour

[23:43] Devin & Lila on phone calls / hangs with rerun friends (the “catch-up report”) & charting new territory friends

[25:04 – 26:03]

Lila: I’ve thought a lot about the kind of friendships in which you report back, right, you’re doing a reporting or an inventory of your life. “What’s happened since I last saw you?” “Oh, this and this and this,” and then you, you fill each other in, and that is your experience together, is this “catching up,” but it’s really a, a telling of stories and a reporting. As opposed to the relationships where you are experiencing things together, and they’re centered around experiencing things together.

Devin: Bingo.

Lila: And sometimes I’ve found myself just being in a default mode with a certain person, even when we can see each other, even when we could, we could just get together and we could, like we could be at The Met! But, we’re in a coffeeshop, just reporting, what we’ve done, outside of our relationship, rather than making memories together.

[26:20 – 31:58] The intimacy of phone calls

Devin: I think phone calls are intimate, and we’ll probably circle back to this, but. I’m thinking about people that fall in love at a distance and, you can stay up all night talking to someone and continue to mine new territory and new ideas and have one of those conversations where, you’re going to the bathroom and you’re making yourself a snack, and you’re getting in bed and you’re like, you know, the phone is cradled the whole time until your, your battery is dead, and, you’re never sharing physical space, but you’re charting new territory together in that shared realm.

[…]

Lila: But I’m not even talking about, perfunctory, because I don’t, I don’t have a lot of perfunctory relationships, like that. I’ve mainly, pushed those people to the outer spheres of my planet friendship, right, they’re out, out in acquaintance orbit. […] I don’t devote a lot of time to those people. But there are people in my life, who, I have fallen into a pattern of, when I see them, we wind up telling each other stories about what’s happened since the last time we saw each other.

Devin: Ahhh, okay.

Lila: And, and that doesn’t mean that it’s not deep, or connected— in fact, I just had a phone call, and it was a phone call not a video call, because, there’s something— it’s odd. My mom only wants to have video calls with me because she really loves to see me. But I feel, actually, much more intimately connected, when we’re just having a phone call, and I’m not looking at myself and seeing how my hair is (laughs) and I’m not uh, angling, concerned about where I’m holding the phone, and and getting a good angle for the person to see me and making sure the light is okay and I’m not backlit and blahblahblah, all this other stuff.

Devin: There’s a whole science of that, too. One, your eyes are not looking, the way eyes would normally look, because you’re looking at the screen, so you’re looking slightly downward, which makes you look more guilty and less trustworthy. And then the— even though we, I mean, it’s amazing that we have this like, lightning-fast video and you can be on the other side of the world and we can see each other in what seems like real-time.

Lila: It is magic.

Devin: But, those little glitches, and those moments, where it just slows, all of that sends very weird signals to our brain, so, it’s like, even though we’re not consciously aware of it, it would be like having a phone call with horrible hiss over the, the whole phone call, and you’re like Wow. I feel so drained; it was really hard to hear that person. Your brain is trying to figure out, all of these signals that it should normally be able to get from eyebrow raises and small micro-movements of muscles and all of these things that are hard to get on a little blurry video screen. It’s incredibly taxing, so, after an hour-long video call, you feel way way way more drained than you would after getting coffee across from someone. […] Please continue; I had misunderstood your point about the uh, the report.

Lila: […] So this phone call that I had with Tiana, a few days ago, was really juicy, and really exciting, and really satisfying; I was sitting in a, in a cafe, sitting on a crate, eating a parfait, basically, and and, talking to her, and it was a catch-up, because we hadn’t spoken innn… a few months, which is not usual for us, we usually speak a lot more often, so there’s a lot to share, and there was a lot of energy and momentum and excitement behind sharing, ‘cause it’s like, “Oh my God, who have you— Oh! You’re not with that guy anymore! Oh my God what happened?” You know. “What is he doing? This is bananas! Oh and this person got blasted on social media!” Da da da da, and then the internal stuff, right, like what’s been going on inside me: the downs and the ups and the way that I’ve been talking to myself and what I wanna create and what I’m dreaming of for the next chapter, and timing and! There was a lot of juice, and it felt very … it felt very nourishing. It did feel like quality time. Quality time and physical touch are my top two love languages. I, like them together! (laughs) To me, quality time usually denotes in-person, and, I, remember, thinking about creating a course around connection, and I was talking to Kenneth about it and he was encouraging me, to make sure that I include digital connection, because… especially for the younger generation, even, before they were forced to, these digitally-mediated means of connection like through gaming, through Instagram, through, through video… new ways that people are connecting. And if I… if I create some kind of hierarchy of connection, that looks down on digital connection, I’m not gonna help people very well. There is something in me that really feels that for me it’s not as good. Like I would, I would choose any day to be walking with Tiana on the West Side Highway path… than, you know, sitting on a phone call with her from across the world, you know, I’d much prefer… to be in her presence, to, to see her, to feel those micro-expressions, to… to be able to touch her and give her a squeeze and, you know, all those things are so valuable to me.

[31:59] Devin on how “the medium is the message” applies to digital communication

[33:28 – 37:02]

Devin: Yeah.

Lila: I mean. That’s not a great example, because, I had very deep connections with my baristas. (laughs lightly for a while)

Lila: I would say we’re getting most of our nutrients, but we’re missing something like Iron.

Devin: Yeah.

[37:04 – 38:42] Devin floats the concept that digital connection robs us of experiencing the totality of human connection

[38:43 – 40:38] Lila compares digital connection to space ice cream.

[40:40 – 42:18] Devin defends our era against those romanticizing other times periods

Devin: It’s easy to get caught up on this criticism, and sort of like, nostalgia, you know, every generation is like, Ah, when I was a kid, things were great, and people were real, and now it’s gotten worse, and (Lila giggles) it’s very easy to forget that there’s amazing things that you’re not experiencing. Like, someone from an older generation, like, Oh, have you ever had the thrill of texting nudes back and forth with a recent lover all night long? Like, that can be a lot of fun! Like, I’m sure it was great to use the same pick-up line over and over and over again at your local singles bar, but it’s also fun to connect on Tinder with somebody, and have a sudden date that, surprises you and ends up in a really hot hookup, like, just because you swiped on someone and started chatting! So I think there’s positives there too, but you’re right that it’s just categorically different.

[42:19] How do we solve the phenomenon of the empty room?

[43:11]

Devin: It is weird that, no matter what’s happening on that screen, the moment you close that laptop, you’re just in an empty room by yourself again.

[43:23] Lila on digital sex parties, her shower scene, a private room… and this phenomenon, aka “After the virtual play party, the empty room”

[46:49 – 47:22] Lila speculates about VR sex

[47:55] Devin ponders the relative newness of digital connection

Devin: I wonder if, with the technology that we have, if some of our frustration is just that it’s in a more primitive form. If you think back to the 90s, and trying to surf the internet, (chortles) it was not the same experience that we have today! I remember loading up video clips, to then like wait, and go play basketball outside, and then come back and watch my 30-second-long video clip that had finally finished loading! (Lila laughs lightly) And, now we can stream Netflix, and so I wonder, if some of these fixes— it’ll always be like you said, it’ll always be space ice cream; it’ll always be something different, but, if people go like, Oh my God, to be in virtual space, to be able to take on any body and form, and then to be able to trigger… in your partner like, using this crazy interface, Ah! Like so much fine-tuning and things that could be done, it’s way better than just trying to poke at somebody with your hands and tongue.

Lila: Don’t you think we’ll have that regard, or that nostalgia for the messiness, and the realness, of skin-to-skin contact? And saliva, and—

Devin: Oh, absolutely.

Lila: I don’t know that that can ever be replaced, even if technology is so sophisticated, that we have an uncanny valley experience of revulsion at the thing that is so human-like. Even if we’re to that point where, robots feel so human-like. I think there will be … I think we will have a hierarchy, of, this ultimately is not, real real.

Devin: And I think the more that something becomes taboo, the more it becomes fetishized. […] I’m sure that people are rebelling and doing things that are risky because, it’s now off-limits.

Lila: Oh definitely.

Devin: So, I can imagine a world where everyone has crazy, four-dimensional, holotropic VR sex, and then you go, to the grimy little glory hole booth to just like (laughing) kiss and poke each other with fingers for 15 minutes!

The joy of Msr. Person, as captured by Mark Shaw Studio.

[50:34] What sex is like in the sci-fi book Blindness

[51:51] Lila & Devin on risk, the price of admission you pay for exhilarating experiences

[52:13] The article in The Atlantic about why young people are having less sex these days

[52:21] Lila’s main take-away from the article

Lila: I read the whole thing avidly. It has a lot of potential cultural factors. But, what I gleaned from that whole article was that, the reason why teens are having less sex, is because their risk-tolerance is so low!

Devin: Oh! Interesting!

Lila: So much lower than previous generations. For instance, in the 50s, if you wanted to have a date with somebody, you had to call them on the telephone, that their mother or father would pick up!

Devin: Yes. (giggles)

Lila: You had to talk to their mother or father and try to get through that gatekeeper, in order to talk to this person, and ask them on a date. Going further back, you know, you would have to go through a series of, prescribed courtship rituals, and then, write somebody a letter, which may or may not be delivered, may or may not be intercepted, may or may not be reciprocated! You know, you had— you had to take risks. Even before we had cell phones: If you wanted to hit on somebody, you had to go up to them. And talk to them. Or you had to get your friend to do it. Right, you had to take a risk in some way. You had to either go up to them and feel your heart pounding, and feel your palms sweating, and, feel your breath get quicker, and figure out something to say! Even if it was just “Hi” it felt like Oh my God! I’m gonna say hi to this super hot guy! Oh my Godohmygodohmygodhohmygod!

Devin: (overlapping) Oh, the quintessential 90s thing of like, You gotta get her number! And then, you think about the logistics of, Well, okay, I have the number, and now, it’s two days later, and I have to call and say, “Hey! I’m, I’m Brad, from Saturday night at the bar.

Lila: Right.

Devin: How many guys has this person given their number to? It’s just a different thing, and I think you’re totally right that it’s changed and […] with online dating, if you’re in a big-enough city, you know, there’s very low risk of ghosting someone. You ghost somebody there’s—

Lila: Very low.

Devin: You’re not gonna run into them again, so, why, why bother to maintain these civil connections of “No thank you; I’m just gonna go on now.”

Lila: And this is one of the things that the kids said, when they were interviewed. They said, that they didn’t want to have the risk of talking to somebody in person, that they weren’t already sure was interested in them. And wanted to go on a date with them. There is this VAST CAVERN of: risk, bravery, courage, experience, exhilaration, excitement, turn-on, desire… that comes from looking at someone, wanting them, and then figuring out, and bringing yourself to the point, where you break ice with them. And the thing is, these kids are not getting that. Because they won’t talk to anybody in person, that they don’t already know wants to go on a date with them!

Devin: That’s the whole delightful dance of flirtation!

[56:17] Devin on whether we will always want the newest best thing in dating, or whether we will settle for this level of digital connection without seeking upgrades

[57:49] Lila on the current state of modern dating

Lila: It’s the Seamlessification of Dating, where you think you can just order up whatever you want, and send it a car! To arrive to you. And you treat it like a catalogue, and, like a buffet, and like a Seamless order.

[58:35] Devin wonders about young people finding it easier to stay home and watch porn than try to engage with people in real life

[59:12] Lila on this resilience in the face of rejection

[1:00:34] Young Japanese males who refrain from sex: Herbivores

[1:01:30] Devin on how “the medium is the message” applies here

Devin: Looking at pornography and having physical sex: Yes. There is nudity involved; there’s probably similar endorphins and dopamine and that kind of stuff, but it’s also just totally different. If you’re having sex with someone, you don’t get to just open a new tab and look for somebody else!

[1:02:17 – 1:03:23] Devin on the little bit of delusion that confidence requires. Is self-awareness and being “on-the-record” killing our delusions of confidence?

[1:03:42 – 1:07:12] Facebook image crafting, over-exposure, & the lack of mystery — what are these doing to our bids for connection?

[1:05:41] Lila read a lot of Tinder profiles in which men complained that women don’t look like their pictures. One wrote, “If you not look like the photos, you buy me drinks until you look like the photos.”

[1:06:12 – 1:07:12] Lila’s met no one she matched with on Tinder in the past year

[1:07:13 – 1:07:58] Devin speculates about the evolution of the Tinder ecosystem

[1:07:59] Icing on Tinder & laconic dialogue. Devin imagines AI Tinder bots that set up dates for you.

[1:10:26] The Chinese Room in Blindness and the Turing Test / Devin thinks most of Tinder fails the Turing Test

[1:11:59] Ghosting used to be called getting stood up

Lila: You were talking about ghosting, and you said that you thought it was more of a new phenomenon but, I do think that ghosting has been around forever. Perhaps this is happening more often, or perhaps we’re just— sort of like when you’re looking for quarters on the ground you suddenly see quarters all the time. But it used to be called being stood up. Right, where somebody— you actually got, you got, you took a shower, you got dressed up, you put your makeup on, you put your perfume on, you got in your car, you drove somewhere, you sat down! And then the person didn’t show. And you never heard from them. Why do you think that’s called being stood up? As though you’re standing, and you’re not able to be seated because your party isn’t complete? […] Like you’re standing at the hostess booth and they’re like, “Yep, sorry, we can’t seat you.”

[1:12:54] Devin wonders what ghosting is like in small towns

[1:14:24] Devin on digital communication as disruptive technology

Devin: It feels like we’re just in a disruptive era. I’m sure that there’s probably a phase where something new comes along, and it tears up the old stuff and everybody’s— you know, the new stuff isn’t really plugged in yet and the old stuff is all kind of broken, and, then when the new stuff gets plugged in, you settle down until the next disruption comes along. I think we’re just like, in between phases right now, and probably will be for a long time ‘cause disruptive technology is gonna be the theme of the century.

123. this ritual is horizontal: mash-up with a wizard podcast [1 of 2]

Hello horizontal lovers & ritualists, horizontal is the podcast about sex, love, & relationships of all kinds, recorded while lying down. this ritual is horizontal is part of my Season 4, the Season of Experiments.  Usually, I have a guest or two reclining next to me, sharing a pillow, but This Season in the Era of Covid, my guest is often lying down across the world from me, as Devin is here…

Liked it? Take a second to support horizontalwithlila on Patreon!

123. this ritual is horizontal: mash-up with a wizard podcast [1 of 2]

123. this ritual is horizontal: mash-up with a wizard podcast [1 of 2]

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