This is Iena, in his favored habitat.
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Iena: I’ve been guilty of doing that myself. The thing is that, there’s so many times, even to this day, where I’m now able obviously to read partners a lot better than— well that comes with experience. And, so many times, still to this day, where, I am fucking someone and then I, I see in their face I’m like, “Is it hurting?” And they go like, “Yeh, it’s okay,” or they will then, go and like say, “Yeah,” I’m like, “But you’ve been pulling that face for the last 10 minutes!” And they go like, “Ah, yeah, but it’s o—” Like. Seriously. Just stop.
Lila: Do you ever ask them why?
Iena: What, why it’s hurting?
Lila: No!
Iena: Why they didn’t say anything?
Lila: Why they actually didn’t say anything.
Iena: For the same reason as you. Because it feels inadequate to. And… and also, going back to that ruthlessness, there’s also been times where, I was on the verge of coming, I really wanted to come, and I knew they were in pain, I just kept going….
Lila: (softly) Yeah.
Iena: And then you come, and then you realize… Mmh. I was ruthless. And then you can talk about it. And you establish boundaries.
[…]
It’s amazing how… a lot of women are reluctant to set boundaries. They’re afraid of it. It’s like they don’t, know that they have this right.
Lila: I think it, it’s mostly fear around losing the person because it’s that whole, Ah, well if I won’t do this for him, he’ll just go find someone who will.
Iena: I think everybody wants to … fit in. Human nature, we’re we’re, we’re sheeplings. So… you want to comply! You’re having sex, and obviously this whole patriarchal, thing is, you know that the man has to be satisfied and he has to orgasm. And that’s your duty as a woman, to make him happy and satisfied, so you just there and you bite the pillow, until he’s come and then you, if he takes too long, then you fake an orgasm or whatever, hoping he’ll, uhh, that will make it end sooner. The guy won’t realize because, they’re fucking clueless about stuff like that. And then, (snickering) you do the same the next time, I mean it— and you never address the root problem, that could just be, Oh, this position hurts—
Lila: Or I need some more lube!
Iena: Or this pace hurts.
[…]
Iena: I can tell you that if you’re doing your shit right, you do not need lube!
Lila: I need lube all the time, because hardly any lover I’ve ever had, has ever taken the time that I really required.
[…]
Iena: I’ve had a lot of women who said exact— “Oh, I need lube because I’m too dry,” and I’m just: “Leave it. Leave it to Uncle Yen.” (Lila giggles) And I’ll just get to work and they’ll say, “No no, really, you don’t understand,” I’m like, “Sh sh, just don’t worry.” They’re like, “Oh, but I know my body. I’ve had it for 30 years; it’s never happened,” I’m “Tch tch, don’t worry.” (Lila laughs) “No but you really don’t understand OH MY GOD! WHAT IS THAT?” (Lila laughs lightly) […] It’s the same thing with uh, anal sex.
Lila: But people who haven’t had the kind of training that you had, they get in these habits that are seemingly impossible to break, of just wanting to go in really quickly and, getting impatient and, oh my God, if somebody’s impatient with me, I just, close up right away! You know?
Iena: And I feel almost as bad for them as I do for the partners that they end up with.
Hello my patron.
This is part two of my recording with Iena: kinkster, rope aficionado, photographer, vast lover of womankind, former porn producer, and sadist extraordinaire.
Part one of our conversation, episode 121. how to suck tits (properly), was a straightforward interview, and I narrated it (more or less) in a journalistic style, or as I like to call it, in the style of NPR.
In how to suck tits, we explored Iena’s origin story, from his 4 year-old erections to nudie mags in his crib, an obsession with newsstands and porn, 10 years of sexual mentoring, an abiding love of tits, and losing his oral virginity in the red light district.
This, our second half, will also be narrated, but let’s say, a bit more liberally. In fiction writing, this is called an intrusive narrator — but that sounds so rude! I will editorialize quite a bit more, and keep more of my voice in the interview segments. It’s all part of the Season of Experiments.
In this part, we discuss:
- the baseball metaphor of sexual escalation
- why I and many other women have chosen not to interrupt painful sex
- CNC — consensual nonconsensual play
- kink and aftercare
- Iena’s anal sex prowess
- & tools for repair if a boundary is broken.
Then he tells me a story about a gorgeous Scandinavian woman on top, and an act he decidedly did not consent to.
Come lie down with us again in Canggu, Bali, Indonesia.
Links to Things:
Iena’s kinky photographer Instagram
Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies, a book that blew Lila’s mind
Show Notes:
(if you quote from this resource, link to the post or the horizontal Patreon, por favor!)
[2:33] The years Iena refers to as “stuck in limbo,” between his first blow job and his first penetrative experience.
[3:41] Lila & Iena realize just how skewed the baseball metaphor for sexual escalation is
[4:45] Iena, surprised to hear Lila call America “sex-negative,” makes an ode to his American girlfriends
[5:30] American women & blow jobs
Iena: Actually there’s one thing that I learned pretty early on, that I loved about American women, is that: they might not fuck, but they’ll suck dick.
Lila’s Voice-Over: My suspicion is that, at least part of the time, what can seem like sexual openness and enjoyment, is actually a matter of young American women trying to avoid being called either a prude, or a slut, by offering (what we have been socialized to think of as) the least viable unit of sexual availability: the blow job. At one point, I was that young American woman.
Iena: It’s like they get taught — I dunno, do they get taught by family or at school to give head instead so they will abstain?
Lila: Definitely not by family; definitely not at school. I think it’s just the workaround that they find. There’s also — what, what is it, they call it a Catholic virgin? Where they will have anal sex.
Iena: Just take it in the ass, yeah.
Lila: Yeah. And I hadn’t heard of that until recently, and hearing about people’s histories—
Iena: I, I can confirm it exists. (both laugh lightly) I’ve read it on the internet.
Lila: But I think they’re still indoctrinated to: How can I keep this boy interested? What’s the least — like the lowest common denominator — what’s like the least thing that I can do that he will want, that will keep him happy, and that I don’t feel like I’m breaking my religious convictions, or, whatever it is, sex before marriage.
Iena: I don’t think it was so much sex-before-marriage; it was more like uh, not adding a number to the amount of sexual partners they had— so they will do it eventually, but just not straightaway.
Lila: Which is so funny, right, because people don’t consider oral sex sex. Oral sex is for sure sex! This is like so! It’s so odd, but, you know, we make all kinds of justifications to ourselves so that we can try not to have cognitive dissonance, right. So that we can keep concordant with our, our values, and our desires.
Iena: Yeah it’s funny ‘cause um, you go out on a date with um, girl from Europe or whatever, there’s quite a lot of them who won’t fuck you on the first date. It also means they won’t, she won’t suck your dick on the first date. Because they kind of go hand in hand. Whereas I learned early on, that if you go on a date with an American chick, she’ll dive on your cock like it was made of candy. And now I see why and— the reason why is a little bit sad and it’s it’s kind of taken away a little bit from the excitement. Because it doesn’t come from a positive pla— space. It comes from a place of pressure and judgement.
Lila: I think for most, it does, yeah. And maybe also just that unhealthy desire to please?
Iena: Hm.
Lila: Not, not true desire for the experience.
Iena: Like pressure, that you put on yourself, to please.
Lila: Yeah. That’s not something that I’ve done a lot, but that’s because, I find giving a blow job really intimate. And I only do it if I want to, and that’s not with every person I go on a date with, and it’s not all the time.
Iena: I tend to go on a date with someone that I get a feeling — likes me, rather than, just because I asked her for a date. I think I’m pretty good at picking up the cues of uh, whether somebody’s into me or not. Or whether a woman will do something, will go out with someone just because she’s asked. And because she doesn’t feel good about saying no. So it’s a “Yeah alright,” rather than a “Fuck yeah.”
Lila: Yeah.
Iena: Like I, I go for the fuck yeah. I don’t go for the “Okay.” I like to think that every time that I did go out with a woman and uh, she jumped on my cock, it’s because she was excited to. You can also read whether there is excitement in the act, where— or whether somebody’s going through the uh, through the motions, and it’s mechanical.
[9:53] The time Iena stopped a woman in the middle a blow job
Iena: I’ve had— I’ve actually had … at least one experience that felt really mechanical and I stopped halfway through and I was like, this is. This ends now. I nipped it in the bud. There was just something really wrong about it. I was not enjoying it.
Lila: I’ve had that. I’ve had that with fingers, and I’ve had it with, tongues. Where I’m like, “It’s okay, you can stop!” (laughs) I don’t, I don’t want it!
Iena: When that story comes up with people, they all seem outraged that I stopped halfway through. They go like, “What, did you just stop and tell her that you’d had enough or s—?” W— what else would you do?
Lila: Yeah, well, we’re—
Iena: Keep going because you’re already going, that’s, that’s not! how it’s done.
Lila: Yeah but that’s how a lot of women are indoctrinated and taught—
Iena: (overlapping) Not just, not just women! No this is not just women; this is just people in general. It seems to be — the general consensus seems to be that: in for a penny, in for a pound.
Lila’s Voice-Over: Most of us were somehow indoctrinated that it isn’t okay to change our mind during sex. There have been more times than I care to admit … in which vaginal penetration has been painful for me, and/or I knew I wasn’t going to have an orgasm, or I felt disconnected, or unloved, or otherwise psychologically uncomfortable, and yet I didn’t ask for something different, or to stop altogether… until the man ejaculated.
Lila: Something I really try to do with, with myself, with my friends, with my, clients, with the show is: give permission to change your mind! Permission to change your mind, if it’s no longer pleasurable, permission to stop! Permission to do something else; permission to ask for something else.
Iena: You’ve got permission to do whatever the fuck you want. As long as it doesn’t harm the other person. Like, you have … sacrosanct ownership of uh, your body. And it, it’s shocking, the amount of people that I, told this story to, and they’ll go — you know what they say? “Oh my God, that was really rude.” “Oh my God, she must have felt terrible.” So they just think, oh the other person, or how the other person is feeling.
Lila: And you’re like, “It was my body and I felt terrible.”
Iena: Yes! Yes. I mean obviously it probably doesn’t, doesn’t help my case that I’m a man and uh, and she’s a woman so there is— in the same way that there is ingrained patriarchy, in your culture, there’s also, kind of the reverse, in the way that, only women are seen to have feelings and uh, men’s feelings are largely unknown, to exist. Like they’re not acknowledged.
Lila’s Voice-Over: Toxic masculinity, which lauds stoicism, logic, control and self-control, hurts everyone who comes in contact with it — which is to say, everyone. Humans are emotional creatures, and when people socialized as men are taught not to show, not to have feelings … the result is pain and violence of all kinds. Breaking away from machismo is no easy feat, as Iena well knows.
[13:15 – 15:12] Iena on men’s feelings
[15:12] Lila on sexual boundaries, and neglecting to enforce hers
Lila: Ideally none of us would continue with sexual acts that aren’t bringing us pleasure. You know? Ideally we would stop but, I have definitely, so many times, just prayed for the guy to come. Because it was hurting me. And I didn’t enjoy it. And I didn’t want to continue. But I didn’t have — I didn’t give myself the permission. I didn’t feel like it was okay, to, say stop. And I was afraid, of the emotions actually! I was afraid of the anger, that I would incur, if I were to not allow that guy to use my body to finish and come.
Iena: Question for you: Were you— was your, only concern anger or, was there any concern about his actual feelings of, him being hurt? If you, if you did that? It, it’s just a curiosity that I have of how, we are perceived by women in that— setting.
Lila: (sigh) I’m— I’m always, I’m kind of always concerned about how people feel. And wouldn’t want the man to feel that … he wasn’t a good lover, that he was inadequate. So I’m sure that that was mixed in there.
Iena: But the primary one was anger.
Lila: (pause) I don’t— no, I don’t know. I— I think it was a f— a fear of all the other emotions that could come up as well.
Iena: That’s okay, there’s no right or wrong answer—
Lila: Frustration. Disappointment… I’m, I’m trying to remember instances in which I continued even though it was like, giving me papercuts— you know, giving me vaginal fissures on the inside and— and I did it anyway.
Lila’s Voice-Over: Full disclosure: I thought I’d left that behind in my early 20s, but then… I did it again last week! My fear of disappointing or upsetting this man was so strong. He had been grumpy for days, I thought the sex would help, and I didn’t want to do anything that might have him direct his annoyance at me… I know better than that. I now know better many times over, and yet… I still wound up doing it — allowing myself to be pained in order to try and be pleasing…
Lila: A lot of times I also wanted to keep the man. And I was afraid that he would be upset, and wouldn’t want to be with me anymore.
Lila’s Voice-Over: Iena has strong opinions on that lack of boundaries.
Iena: Well I’ll give you a tip on that […] anyone who’s listening a tip on that: If you’re ever facing that dilemma, and you’re thinking, I wanna keep this man and uh, if I just keep taking it, and suffer, then uh, I’m going to feel more adequate and I’m going to ge— that’s not how it works. Anybody who is worthy of, your time and, your energy, is going to respect you more if you, enforce your boundaries. […] Like you’re not going, “Listen, you’re shit. Put it away. You’re not—” Like this is just like, “Hey, it’s hurting me. Right now. Let me stop. For a minute. Might even push you off and sit on your face. Just lick my clit until I feel better, and if I’m not feeling better yet. We just stop for now.” And, you’re asserting yourself, that’s attractive. That is an attractive personality trait. It may be a little hard to deal with in the moment, because uh, men have a very very fragile, ego. Very fragile. Especially when it comes to anything sexual. Sizes of penis, sexual performance, being the top two offenders. Which is why we, then overcompensate by acting macho and doing all the things that we do that are really fucking annoying and detrimental to intersexual relationships. Basically what I’ve learned is that you have to be ruthless, and it doesn’t matter— you come first. If you worry too much about other people’s feelings, it’s, like you lose value as a human being.
Lila’s Voice-Over: While he is speaking from a heteronormative viewpoint, and it chafes me when people talk absolutes about what “men care about” and what “women want,” etc. … I admit there is something that has always appealed to me about ruthless out-for-yourself-ness. Probably because I find it so challenging, codependent as I am. The word ruthless, when related to sexual pleasure, always reminds me of the book Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies.
[20:30] Ruthlessness & orgasm
[21:04]
Iena: I’ve been guilty of doing that myself. The thing is that, there’s so many times, even to this day, where I’m now able obviously to read partners a lot better than— well that comes with experience. And, so many times, still to this day, where, I am fucking someone and then I, I see in their face I’m like, “Is it hurting?” And they go like, “Yeh, it’s okay,” or they will then, go and like say, “Yeah,” I’m like, “But you’ve been pulling that face for the last 10 minutes!” And they go like, “Ah, yeah, but it’s o—” Like. Seriously. Just stop.
Lila: Do you ever ask them why?
Iena: What, why it’s hurting?
Lila: No!
Iena: Why they didn’t say anything?
Lila: Why they actually didn’t say anything.
Iena: For the same reason as you. Because it feels inadequate to. And… and also, going back to that ruthlessness, there’s also been times where, I was on the verge of coming, I really wanted to come, and I knew they were in pain, I just kept going….
Lila: (softly) Yeah.
Iena: And then you come, and then you realize… Mmh. I was ruthless. And then you can talk about it. And you establish boundaries.
[22:20] Iena on boundaries
It’s amazing how… a lot of women are reluctant to set boundaries. They’re afraid of it. It’s like they don’t, know that they have this right.
Lila: I think it, it’s mostly fear around losing the person because it’s that whole, Ah, well if I won’t do this for him, he’ll just go find someone who will.
Iena: I think everybody wants to … fit in. Human nature, we’re we’re, we’re sheeplings. So… you want to comply! You’re having sex, and obviously this whole patriarchal, thing is, you know that the man has to be satisfied and he has to orgasm. And that’s your duty as a woman, to make him happy and satisfied, so you just there and you bite the pillow, until he’s come and then you, if he takes too long, then you fake an orgasm or whatever, hoping he’ll, uhh, that will make it end sooner. The guy won’t realize because, they’re fucking clueless about stuff like that. And then, (snickering) you do the same the next time, I mean it— and you never address the root problem, that could just be, Oh, this position hurts—
Lila: Or I need some more lube!
Iena: Or this pace hurts.
[23:56] What did Iena’s very his first penetrative sex partner ask him afterwards?
[25:18] Iena on the lack of education around foreplay, and the psychological / emotional aspects of sex
Iena: I can tell you that if you’re doing your shit right, you do not need lube!
Lila: I need lube all the time, because hardly any lover I’ve ever had, has ever taken the time that I really required.
[…]
Iena: I’ve had a lot of women who said exact— “Oh, I need lube because I’m too dry,” and I’m just: “Leave it. Leave it to Uncle Yen.” (Lila giggles) And I’ll just get to work and they’ll say, “No no, really, you don’t understand,” I’m like, “Sh sh, just don’t worry.” They’re like, “Oh, but I know my body. I’ve had it for 30 years; it’s never happened,” I’m “Tch tch, don’t worry.” (Lila laughs) “No but you really don’t understand OH MY GOD! WHAT IS THAT?” (Lila laughs lightly) […] It’s the same thing with uh, anal sex.
Lila: But people who haven’t had the kind of training that you had, they get in these habits that are seemingly impossible to break, of just wanting to go in really quickly and, getting impatient and, oh my God, if somebody’s impatient with me, I just, close up right away! You know?
Iena: And I feel almost as bad for them as I do for the partners that they end up with.
[27:16] Iena lambastes the lack of state-endorsed sexual and emotional education
[29:45] Lila’s dream of creating an Intimacy Academy
Lila’s Voice-Over: My Intimacy Academy would encompass the interpersonal subjects I wish we’d been taught in school. Including emotional intelligence and relational self-awareness, love languages and communication techniques and mediation, relationship agreements and uncoupling. As well as offering an array of hands-on practical classes like massage and impact play and Shibari.
[30:10] Iena’s kink origin story
Lila’s Voice-Over: Shibari, the Japanese rope bondage, is an interest Iena and I have in common. I know that kink is foundational to his current sex life, and I’m always curious about how (and when) a person discovered they were kinky.
[32:09] Iena’s kink progression
Iena: Restraints I think, was uhh, one of the first ones, then there was uh, choking, which came quite natural. I don’t think I saw choking anywhere else. It was just a uh, an extension of that primal sexual act.
Lila: How’d you know how to do it in a way that wouldn’t actually harm them?
Iena: I didn’t. I was lucky.
Lila: Oofph.
Iena: I didn’t even know that there was a safe way of doing it until much later on. And also didn’t know that it was unsafe to do it until I learned that there was a safe way…
[32:40 – 34:32] Choking someone safely requires a tremendous amount of self-restraint. When you’re adrenalized, things tend to go much faster and much harder.
[34:40] Iena’s kink progression continued
Iena: Group sex. Threesomes. Really rough sex. Anal.
Lila’s Voice-Over: What is rough sex according to Iena? It’s interesting; I think I have a notion of rough sex as being quick, sex… right?
Iena: (soft, low rumble of a laugh) You’ve just been hanging out with the wrong crowd.
Lila: I think I have. I think I have been hanging out with the wrong crowd. Because there’s so much more that you can take if you’re properly, primed… So, are you talking— spanking, biting, hair-pulling, wrestling, restraining—
Iena: Oh yah, there’s the whole— you see, these all things are now that you mention them, well of course, but for me that’s like, just a normal, session. Without even getting too rough.
Lila: (overlapping) That’s not rough…
Iena: Well I guess it is rough if you look at it objectively—
Lila: On a spectrum! (giggles)
Iena: Yes, objectively, yes it is but, for me it’s just another Wednesday afternoon. (both laugh) For me, when I think rough, and I think of proper session, I’m thinking you’re not going to be able to have sex for the next three four five days a week, kind of thing and then you have to… wash all your bedding and… possibly incinerate it and buy some new ones and… hope that somebody doesn’t walk in and think it’s a murder scene.
Lila: It sounds pretty brutal! The not being able to have sex for, two three four five days a week.
Iena: You’ll be surprised at how many women will wear that with pride… It’s the um, notion of, having performed so well and having been able to push it so far to cause that kind of damage. It’s almost like uh, showing off your battle scars. It’s a very primal thing. You either get it or you don’t.
[36:41 – 37:13] Iena on appreciating kink marks
[37:14] Iena on the identity label “primal”
[38:52] An ode to aftercare!
Iena: You should not be doing rough stuff if you cannot do aftercare. […] You don’t get that in porn, you see. They stop filming at the end of the scene when the guy ejaculates, that’s the money shot (snaps) boom! It’s done! And much as I’m all for porn, I’m all for the right kind of porn. And, it does not, show you what sex really is like. […] I think the most important thing it omits, is a) foreplay … but most important— some of them do cover it. There’s this porn that’s geared especially for women. […] But the aftercare, there’s no— I’ve never seen or heard of a porn that deals with the subject of aftercare.
Lila’s Voice-Over: Aftercare is an act or series of acts, performed as part of the conclusion of a BDSM scene — or intense sexual play of any kind — which cultivate a caring atmosphere for the tenderized partner or partners. It can include both physical offerings (cuddling, blanketing, hair-stroking, bathing, massage) and emotional care (checking in, offering praise or validation, holding someone while they weep, or offering companionable silence from across the room). Aftercare is essential. Aftercare is essential. Aftercare is essential.
Iena: That’s physical but it’s also psychological— you gotta check on your partner!
[40:52 – ] On consensual nonconsensual play, unintentionally stepping on boundaries, and making amends
[43:18] Iena’s penchant for anal
[44:50 – 53:16] The story of his Dominatrix partner (submissive to him) who hated anal, and later loved it
[54:39] Lila editorializes about CNC
If you wish to explore CNC, I suggest you learn from highly experienced kinksters, create an agreement with clearly-defined boundaries each and every time you play, and have both a safe word and a safe gesture in place, because, even when you think you’re acting within your agreements, this type of play can still burn you. […] CNC play without a safeword is a genuinely dangerous endeavor, which is why it’s so compelling to kinksters like Iena. I do not personally endorse it. But I do believe in people’s right to engage in the mutually consensual play of their desires, and I think it’s important to know what other people’s sex is like, so we can make informed choices for ourselves.
[55:35 -56:21] Iena on high-stakes boundaries
[56:22]
Lila’s Voice-Over: We have all made mistakes when it comes to boundaries, and we are probably all going to make more mistakes in the future. We need tools for making amends. We need ways to move forward.
[56:52 – 59:16] Iena on how to ask for a sex act that your partner might not want
[59:16 – 1:06:27] Iena tells a story about a time he violated a partner’s “no” during a scene
[1:06:27 – 1:08:55] Iena on the sometimes surprising boundaries that people have
[1:09:25] Iena on having a safe gesture as an alternative [ed. note: or in addition to!] a safe word
Iena: Work on things like cues. If you don’t wanna use a safe word then, it doesn’t have to be a safeword, it could be a body position; it could be a tap. It could be a series of taps. That’s actually a really good one, when they’re unable to talk. […] So taps are much more primal. […] That’s what you do in cage fighting, like people tap.
Lila: Tap out.
Iena: You’re tapping out. […] you’re giving them a tool to get out of it that’s very primal. […] So it goes it goes very well within the uh, the framework of the kind of play that you’re doing.
Lila: I always forget about the safe gesture, or the safe action, that I— I wanna try that, actually. I want to try making it a tap.
Iena: A tap— I’d suggest making it a uh, sequence. Like three or five. Like three for uh […] slow down a little bit— three would be orange. And then five, or, just a repeated thing, you’d—
Lila: (overlapping) The thing is, by the time you need a safe word!
Iena: (overlapping) If you are not emotionally, if you’re— If you’re not very psychologically or emotionally challenged, you know that if somebody— if you go like, oh, you’re five taps, and somebody taps you ten times like that, you know you’re gonna stop! If you need a safe word, you’re usually able to, to do taps.
[1:11:23] The shift in Iena’s relationship after violating that boundary
[1:13:02] Tools Iena has used to repair afterwards: TLC or leaving the person alone, a genuine apology, verbal affirmation, pampering
[1:18:07] Iena tells the story of the gorgeous Scandinavian woman on top, and something he decidedly did not consent to
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