Oh, Hallo there Lemarc, renowned matchmaker & relationship expert…
113. other people’s love: horizontal with a global matchmaker (2 of 4)
Hello my horizontal lover. horizontal is the podcast about sex, love, and relationships of all kinds, recorded while lying down. This is Season 4, my Season of Experiments. I’ll be playing with form in all sorts of ways: with coaching sessions and mash-ups and crossovers, happenings and themes and advice sessions, horizontality in unexpected places, and other intimate surprises.
Lemarc: I think that a conscious relationship would be one where you are not… reacting in your current relationship based on your past experiences, or past pain, in particular. That you are more mindful and that you are choosing actions that are helpful for your love. That you’re — it’s not all about this feeling of love. You know, the psychologist Barbara Fredrickson talks about the feeling of love being this fleeting feeling that is in your body for a moment and then just flitters away when you’re thinking about something else. You know, we can achieve these moments of what she calls “positivity resonance,” experience that with a stranger, or of course we can experience that in a relationship and with increased intensity because we have worked on it. But I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that this feeling is love.
*
Lemarc: I think for the first five years of my career, I was predominantly finding people the matches they were looking for — you know, so it was like, Give me a brief and I will find that person. And I felt that, after a while it’s like, I can give you exactly what you’re looking for in a match… but then you have to make it work. Like that’s easy, to find these people that you’re looking for — even when you give me the most impossible task, like okay this is a 0.02 percent of the population — but, you know, sure, I’ll find that. And then, I’m introducing these people and then you can see that actually, now the person that you were dreaming of is in front of you, and what are you doing, you’re fucking it up.
Lila: You watched your clients do that.
Lemarc: Yeah, absolutely. And then they blamed me for it of course, because it was my fault that (laughs) that the date didn’t go well! And so when I started my new agency in Sweden, I thought, I am not just going to find people the matches that they’re looking for, I’m going to teach them how to love. I’m gonna teach them the skills that we should have learned in school, and then, when they meet someone, they will be able to build the relationship and it’ll be a connection that has the potential to go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, and, whether that is over time, or in a week, that they have the capacity and skills to do that.
Hello my horizontal lover. horizontal is the podcast about sex, love, and relationships of all kinds, recorded while lying down.
This is Lila. Image by Kai Mata. September 2020
This is Season 4, my Season of Experiments. I’ll be playing with form in all sorts of ways: with coaching sessions and mash-ups and crossovers, happenings and themes and advice sessions, horizontality in unexpected places, and other intimate surprises.
In the first four episodes of this season, I (virtually) lie down with Lemarc Thomas, global matchmaker, relationship expert, sweetheart, psychology-versed purveyor of kindness, native St. Helenian, marriage equality advocate, husband to Michael, and, as he has been dubbed by The Telegraph, “the gentle but determined Cupid.”
Our first two episodes are available in all the podcast places for all my horizontalists. Parts three and four will be available exclusively to patrons of the horizontal arts.
Become a patron for access to The Full Horizontal!
In our first part, episode 112. broken a few hearts, Lemarc interviewed me as if I were his newest matchmaking client. It’s a particularly revealing and tender episode for me, as I disclose my visions for a romantic relationship, struggles with belief & sexual attraction, past experiences with some of the men I’ve hurt, and some who’ve hurt me, my pattern of choosing unavailable men to love, fear of feeling suffocated, whether I’ve experienced emotional and sexual attraction at the same time, what I love about being me, and what I imagine my future partner will love about being with me.
You could use episode 112 to Think Like Your Own Matchmaker (I made a video about it for you) and get closer to envisioning the core of your heart’s desire. Ponder the series of questions Lemarc asked me, and perhaps try journaling on them, or getting together with a beloved friend to ask them of each other. If you do so with a friend, I suggest you record it, so you can listen back and see: am I exploring love in accordance with my values?
I mean, don’t you wish he were your Matchmaker?
This is the second episode of my four-part arc with Lemarc. Our experiment is my very first themed episode. I interview Lemarc all about matchmaking. We discuss:
* the differences between traditional matchmaking and Lemarc’s modern take on the industry
* his 4-step process
* love coaching vs. therapy
* being our full rainbow & sharing our crazy
* how to not to date like a teenager
* non-negotiables & deal-breakers
* cultivating communities that will hold the love that we meet
* The Matchmaking Experiment
* becoming a matchmaker
* how Lemarc keeps his vast network in mind, &
* his signature love advice.
If you’d like one-on-one guidance from me on your intimate struggles, I now offer Personal Intimacy Roadmap Sessions. They are 60-minute sessions of sex-positive, judgement-free, kink-aware, LGBTQ+ celebratory, gender-affirming support for what ails you in the realm of sex, love, & relationships of any kind. A session includes exercises, techniques, recommendations, homework, & a tailored roadmap of resources to use as you navigate the terrain of your intimacy challenge. One happy client said, “I’ve had a lot of therapy. But you give advice a therapist cannot give!”
To schedule, email lila@horizontalwithlila.com, and I’ll send you my welcome form, so I can best prepare for you.
If you desire ongoing support of your intimate growth, become a patron of the horizontal arts at the $100/month level and receive a 30-minute coaching session every month! To peruse all the patron tiers and sign up, take a gander at the horizontal Patreon, and thank you! For being part of making the world a more intimate place.
In next week’s patrons-only episode with Lemarc, we explore his childhood as an effeminate boy growing up on one of the most remote inhabited islands in the world, belonging and outsiderness, chameleon-like behavior, and codependency.
Come lie down with us in Uluwatu, Bali, Indonesia & Stockholm, Sweden.
Links to Useful Things:
Lemarc Thomas – The Matchmaking Agency’s website
The Lemarc Thomas Matchmaking Instagram
Love 2.0 by Barbara Fredrickson, which frames love as micro-moments of positivity resonance
Lemarc’s 4-steps to Love
Ken Page’s work on Deeper Dating, which distinguishes attractions vs. attractiveness
Linnea Molander, Swedish Dating Coach (Lemarc’s colleague) and the origin of a favorite Lemarc quote, “be your full rainbow”
Alain de Botton on the “The True Hard Work of Love and Relationships” episode of the On Being podcast (Lemarc quoted his suggestion that on an early day, you say, “I’m crazy like this. How are you crazy?”
The Dark Side of the Light Chasers book (every gift has a shadow; every shadow has a gift)
Logan Ury, who coined the term “relationshopping”
The Matchmaking Institute in New York, where you can train to be a matchmaker!
The Invisibilia episode “The Personality Myth”
Lemarc invites any horizontal lovers who wish to apply for his network / open membership to: Get in touch and say you are horizontal!
Show Notes:
(if you quote from this resource, link to the post or the horizontal Patreon!)
[4:26] Modern matchmaking
Lemarc: Now there is a whole industry of modern matchmakers, like myself, perhaps not so focused on marriage or religion, but more focused on finding the right match, finding compatible matches and […] helping people to love consciously.
[7:47] Other people’s love
Lemarc: I think everyone has strong opinions when it comes to other people’s love.
Lila: Of course. We’re all armchair relationshipping.
[9:53] The difference between traditional matchmaking & Lemarc’s work
Lila: So after I focused on Indian Matchmaking, I thought, Okay, is anybody doing this for non-Indian, non-Orthodox Jewish people? Who’s doing it in a way that crosses ethnicity, that crosses religion, or that doesn’t require religion to be a part of it? Who’s doing it in a way that is international? Who’s doing this is a way that is adapted for the modern world? And that is when Linnea brought me to you! And so I’m curious about the differences between these traditional matchmaking processes — what can you tell us about traditional matchmaking, and then what you’ve developed in this modern climate?
Lemarc: I think the biggest difference is — traditional matchmaking is focused on marriage, often, whereas, modern matchmaking — or for me at least. I think I’m on the extreme other end where I’m focused on conscious love. I would not say that it matters if they get married, or if they stay in a relationship, and this may be a bit provocative but — because a lot of people ask me, “Oh, how many marriages do you have?” And, I don’t see that as a goal, because I would prefer for someone to be in a relationship for 5 years and then end it because it was not the right relationship than to have marriage as the goal, like, “Yes! I’m there. That’s the win!”
Lila: There are so many terrible marriages, so why that should be considered The Win is beyond me.
Lemarc: Absolutely. And of course, like half of marriages end in divorce. So I think we have to be a bit more conscious about love, and choose the right partners, but also choose when it’s not the right relationship for us.
[12:06] Lemarc on conscious love / conscious relationships
Lemarc: I think that a conscious relationship would be one where you are not… reacting in your current relationship based on your past experiences, or past pain, in particular. That you are more mindful and that you are choosing actions that are helpful for your love. That you’re — it’s not all about this feeling of love. You know, the psychologist Barbara Fredrickson talks about the feeling of love being this fleeting feeling that is in your body for a moment and then just flitters away when you’re thinking about something else. You know, we can achieve these moments of what she calls “positivity resonance,” experience that with a stranger, or of course we can experience that in a relationship and with increased intensity because we have worked on it. But I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that this feeling is love.
[14:35] Unconscious love
Lemarc: I think that most of us are unconsciously falling in love, and then expecting it to be magical.
[16:30] How Lemarc’s matchmaking work has evolved
Lemarc: I think for the first five years of my career, I was predominantly finding people the matches they were looking for — you know, so it was like, Give me a brief and I will find that person. And I felt that, after a while it’s like, I can give you exactly what you’re looking for in a match… but then you have to make it work. Like that’s easy, to find these people that you’re looking for — even when you give me the most impossible task, like okay this is a 0.02 percent of the population — but, you know, sure, I’ll find that. And then, I’m introducing these people and then you can see that actually, now the person that you were dreaming of is in front of you, and what are you doing, you’re fucking it up.
Lila: You watched your clients do that.
Lemarc: Yeah, absolutely. And then they blamed me for it of course, because it was my fault that (laughs) that the date didn’t go well! And so when I started my new agency in Sweden, I thought, I am not just going to find people the matches that they’re looking for, I’m going to teach them how to love. I’m gonna teach them the skills that we should have learned in school, and then, when they meet someone, they will be able to build the relationship and it’ll be a connection that has the potential to go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, and, whether that is over time, or in a week, that they have the capacity and skills to do that.
[18:48] Step 1 of Lemarc’s 4-steps to Love [Be mindfully aware of what you have learned about love.]
[24:06] Love Coaching & Matchmaking as opposed to therapy
Lemarc: My background is in trauma, so I have to try very hard to not do therapy. (both giggle)
Lila: Why?
Lemarc: This is not a therapeutic process, and I think that I need to have quite clear boundaries. If I notice that it would be helpful for someone to do therapy and something, then I recommend for them to go to a therapist, but for me, I— it is a different relationship, the coaching relationship, or the matchmaking relationship and the therapeutic relationship, and I think that, like fundamentally, it is about responsibility. When I’m coaching and matchmaking, the client is totally responsible for their situation and I’m just a mirror. I’m just facilitating. Whereas, in a therapeutic situation I am taking more responsibility for this client. The boundaries of the relationship is different.
Lila: I’m wondering what it is to have more responsibility, because the way you described the matchmaker/client or the coach/client relationship is what I understand intellectually about therapy. Is that they don’t take any responsibility for you, or for your actions in the world, they just provide a mirror, and maybe, at some point, an interpretation.
Lemarc: It’s an ethical responsibility, an ethical obligation. And also just in terms of licensing and things like that as well, but, when you’re going into a therapeutic process with a client, they are much more vulnerable than going into a coaching relationship, and the starting point of someone going into coaching or matchmaking is saying that they are well, they are self-sufficient, you know, they can take care of themselves, whereas going into the therapeutic relationship, the client is in a much more vulnerable place, so therefore you have a duty of care for them.
[26:27] Step 2 of Lemarc’s 4 Steps to Love [Be more you. Live according to your values.]
[29:17] Lemarc on investing time in relationship skills
Lemarc: The amount of time we invest in learning the skills we need for, or developing the skills we need for our occupational lives — imagine if we spent some time developing the skills we need for our relationship lives.
[29:57] Lemarc on Ken Page’s work on Deeper Dating — attractions vs. attractiveness, and hiding parts of ourselves
[31:10] Lemarc references Linnea (his Swedish Dating Coach colleague, and Lila’s friend) and her work around being your full rainbow
Lemarc: Our mutual friend Linnea, I stole something from her. She talks about being your full rainbow. If we can allow — rather than adapting to, say, Okay you really like this emotional part of me, so I’m gonna give you that, or, You will probably like my intelligence, so I’m gonna give you that. You’re gonna like my dirty humor, so I’m gonna give you that. What if we could line up all of the parts of our rainbow, and allow all of them to kind of just shine in harmony with each other.
Lila: The thing that comes up for me is: Do you really want to lead with Everything? (Lila laughs, Lemarc chuckles) I mean! You know what I? You know, first date, do we really wanna lay it all out? I was in this discussion group, […] Touchy Topics, and in this discussion group, one of the women shared that she didn’t wanna do that. She didn’t want to compartmentalize, or show up with, what my college friend Helena and I used to call, your Representative. Not just show up with your Representative, that you sent to the date (giggles) to gladhand for you, but she would do the absolute opposite. That she would, she would sit down at the date and be like, “Let’s tell each other all of the unlovable things about ourselves!”
Lemarc: Yeah, I love that!
Lila: (laughing) Date one though, Lemarc? Date one?
Lemarc: Love it.
Lila: Really?
Lemarc: I don’t think that you have to.
Lila: Not— date seven? (Lemarc and Lila laugh lightly)
Lemarc: I don’t think that you have to lead with everything. I think that, all your parts could be in harmony with each other. So, what I imagine is that, on one hand, we are like adapting so much to try and work out what this other person might want, and giving them that part, and squashing some other parts. And then on the other hand I imagine that we are just at ease, at peace within ourselves, and we’re like, in our zen space, where we can just, you know, we can just meet that person, where we are. And you don’t have to tell them anything! You could just sit down in front of them in silence and look in their eyes.
Lila: Mmhm, mmhm. I’m just imagining myself showing up to date one, and saying, “Hey, I’m Lila: I have depressive episodes and wildly fluctuating self-esteem!” (laughs)
Lemarc: Do you know Alain de Botton from The School of Life? […] He says, what people should do on a date is say, “I’m crazy like this. How are you crazy?” So that you see whether your crazies can work together!
[36:16] The Intimacy Warrior path of daring to be more us
Lemarc: I think that if we dare to be more us, rather than to try and work out what other people want us to be, then we might be surprised how… people may actually like it!
Lila: Yeah, I mean it, it really can be a great feat though, right, because a lot of those parts that we may try to hide are the pieces that we loathe ourselves. In ourselves. And so, daring to allow that to be seen, to allow people to love us in it or reject us in it, yes, that’s an Intimacy Warrior thing. That’s really like a Love Warrior path.
A Love Warrior in contemplation.
[38:18] Lila on flaws and lovability
Lila: When I zoom out a little, and I think about my friends. We are all deeply flawed people, right. I can see my friend’s flaws. Very clearly. And I don’t… I don’t remove my love from them because I notice their— these things about them that they consider flaws, because of course, you know, the concept that I got from The Dark Side of the Light Chasers is that, you know, every gift has a shadow and every shadow has a gift. Right, so I see the gifts in their shadows. And also I just, I just love them! And so, you know, if it’s that they’re not loving themselves; if it’s that they’re a workaholic, if it’s that they choose people who are broken, because they so want to fix and they keep choosing these people who, who just zap them, I… I see, and, love them. (laughs lightly) I don’t think that they are un-lovable, because they are these ways.
Lemarc: Yeah, definitely. And, that reminds me of when we were talking about attachment and secure people, and why would a secure person someone who’s either anxious-ambivalent or anxious-avoidant. When we take this one dimension of who a person is, then of course it can be like, yeah, why would they just it— but there’s so many parts of, of who we are as human beings! We’re so complex!
Lila: Right!
Lemarc: That we have so many gifts, and so many flaws and, we can’t really just narrow it down to these, these few things.
Lila: Including seemingly opposite things that we carry, and embody at the same time!
Lemarc: Yeah, absolutely.
Lila: And our personality is malleable! There was a beautiful Invisibilia episode about how much personality was influenced by the sameness, or the same-enough-ness of our environment. And how, once placed in a violently different environment, we would present a personality that was so different. Because we contain multitudes!
Lemarc: I also get, when some people are telling me about what they want in a partner — that they want someone whose been through shit. I’m not saying that everybody wants this, but it comes up sometimes that, we’re not looking for perfect lives.
Lila: Unblemished.
Lemarc: Yeah. For some of my clients, I can see that, if I tell them about someone who has not experienced any darkness, they’re like, “Sooo, what has this person got,” like, “What have they learned? What depth do they have?” If everything’s rosy then, how are they going to like, connect as a deep level? There is really a gift in the toughest things that we go through, as you mentioned.
Lila: The resilience is so beautiful, right.
[41:45] Lila on finding out that a crush of hers had very little empathy
[43:22] Step 3 of Lemarc’s 4 Steps to Love [Working out what true compatibility is for you.]
Lemarc: A lot of us are dating like teenagers. We’re falling for someone through chemistry and attraction, rather than understanding what our underlying emotional needs are, what is, our fundamental requirements in a relationship, and leading with these things first. So what I’m doing in this step is turning the dating process upside down.
[45:10] Lemarc on non-negotiables & dealbreakers, as well as one of his personal non-negotiables
[48:11] On the matter of children
Lemarc: What can often happen is you meet someone where you have the connection and you have the chemistry and you date them for a long time, and initially they’re like, “Yeah, well, for you, I can live without having children,” and then, later on, they’re like, “Actually I really want them.” And maybe you can work that out, you know, there’s also that part of me that feels like everything is negotiable, (giggling) you can work out anything. […] And that’s why it’s also, you know, quite difficult to find out what you’re gonna put in this non-negotiable bit, because for someone like me, I feel like I can negotiate on pretty much anything!
[49:24] The adoption question that made Lemarc reflect on what he really wants, independent of Michael
[50:37] Step 4 of Lemarc’s 4 Steps to Love [Take deliberate action towards love.]
[51:21] Lemarc on whether Tinder counts as Step 4, and Lila on Tinder & the Paradox of choice
[55:42] How Lemarc is a part of his client’s community in Step 4
[56:39] What can Step 4 look like for those who are not able to be Lemarc’s clients?
[59:17] The Matchmaking Experiments (Lemarc’s singles events)
[1:01:29] How Lemarc became a matchmaker
[1:10:26] Lemarc mentions a matchmaking school — The Matchmaking Institute in New York
[1:11:20] How does Lemarc keep his vast network in mind?
[1:13:50] Lemarc invites any of you horizontal lovers who wish to apply for his network / open membership to: Get in touch and say you are horizontal!
[1:14:23] Lemarc’s signature love advice
